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LEJ-640 FT UV Flatbed problems. Ending my silence

CMassPrinting

New Member
Sorry, but what you said about the pinch rollers is a big nonsense! You probably never saw the LEJ-640 machine. First: pinch rollers are not touching the printed inks, they go AFTER the printed inks (they are positioned behind the printhead, not before). Second: during my tests I tried different print modes, resolutions, scan-speeds, feed speeds. Sometimes the distance between vertical stripes (banding) is smaller and the stripes are more thin, in other print modes they are wider and the distance is bigger. So nothing with the pinch rollers.

We ALWAYS wash the boards with the isopropylalcohol (IPA) and even in summer months and higher temps the vertical banding is there. I believe, it's the problem of the construction itself.


You mean the LEJ-640 that I was just elbows deep in, fixing, 30 minutes ago?

Right, never seen it before. The same LEJ-640 that I've used daily, since the day they were available. Nope, never seen one before.


Let me try this again... When the static is an issue with these machines the ink will float around, inside the print bay... it will attach to the pinch rollers...
THIS IS UNDRIED INK

That will cause the rollers to leave what looks like vertical banding, or as we call it... snail trails.

But, you know everything about these units.
So, I must be wrong.
 

Brian27

New Member
You mean the LEJ-640 that I was just elbows deep in, fixing, 30 minutes ago?

Right, never seen it before. The same LEJ-640 that I've used daily, since the day they were available. Nope, never seen one before.


Let me try this again... When the static is an issue with these machines the ink will float around, inside the print bay... it will attach to the pinch rollers...
THIS IS UNDRIED INK

That will cause the rollers to leave what looks like vertical banding, or as we call it... snail trails.

But, you know everything about these units.
So, I must be wrong.

Our LEJ-640 was a flatbed. No rollers. In this case, you're wrong and my previous posts explain in vivid detail why.
 

maravac

New Member
Our LEJ-640 was a flatbed. No rollers. In this case, you're wrong and my previous posts explain in vivid detail why.

Yes, that's true. So no pinch rollers trails. As I also said, when I changed the printing parameters (lower scan-speed), those vertical stripes were there again, but thinner and closer to each other.
 

cornholio

New Member
A Roland Tech

I have some bad news for you. It can't be fixed.
I tried for 6 months straight. 4 techs from my dealer and 2 techs from Roland flew out and could not figure it out. The reason they couldn't figure it out is because it's a flaw with the printer itself. They were all set to replace my FT with their demo, but a light clicked in their heads and they tried to print black on their own demo and it produced identical results. Only then did they agree to return it outright.

After hundreds of hours of troubleshooting I've found a few less than ideal work arounds to help mitigate the vertical banding.

1. Print in White + CMYK mode but with no white layer. This mode is the only mode that will allow a head speed of 1000 mm/s. That combined with the obscene amount of passes, it essentially eliminates the banding. Unfortunately this mode will triple or quadruple your print times. In our case, we always overprint 2x or 3x so you can see why this isn't a viable long term option. A 4x8 panel with 2x overprint takes roughly 5 hours to print in this mode.

2. Only print your blacks with K. Spot color BK21a. This usually works because the banding is caused by the mixing of colors which haven't been properly calibrated for the lamps on the 640 so it produces gloss vertical banding. Using only the K channel reduces the effect considerably. However, because this printer also has issues with starvation, you may find (like we did) that it isn't capable of printing black with just K for long before you start getting really bad horizontal streaks through your prints.

3. Unplug the right (trailing) UV lamp. This is a solution I tried around month two. While it does help with the vertical banding, it makes the print very gloss from not being cured correctly and hurt the adhesion to plastic so I didn't find this viable. Amazingly months later, Roland finally came up with a "solution" and sent me instructions. Low and behold it was merely unplugging the right lamp, essentially rigging the machine. Another reason this isn't viable, which they apparently didn't take into consideration when creating this solution, is that it requires you to be in service mode since unplugging the lamp will produce an error upon startup and while in service mode your printer will never turn off (sleep) and wont run auto cleaning cycles. Roland brilliance in action.
Note: I don't recommend doing this unless you know the process. You can PM me and I can send you the instructions if you want.

4. Print in high speed. It's backwards thinking but printing in this mode will actually produce other more subtle print defects like horizontal banding that will help mask the vertical banding. This is how we printed just about all our solid colors.

5. Use high head height. It may seem counter intuitive but the increase height masks the banding. Unfortunately this will also make the detail in your prints look like hammered dog **** but for large solid colors it does help.

6. Get a new printer. You might think I'm joking but really I'm not. I spent hundreds of hours and countless late nights/weekends dealing with that god forsaken machine and sent dozens and dozens of emails to Roland throughout the process and got exactly zero help in return short of techs coming out to patronize me as if I somehow was imagining all the problems I had. Thankfully my dealer was on my side and was able to get it returned.
The Oce we replaced it with has been here for two weeks and I can honestly say it's night and day. It was significantly more expensive but I'm extremely happy with it so far.

7. Don't print solid colors. lol.

Things that will not help.
-It's not static - I cannot stress this enough. I tried everything from static bars, dryer cloth, humidity control, static cleaners....nothing. Don't let anyone feed you this crock of BS.:banghead:
-Higher quality - As you've probably already figured out, increasing to high or even artistic will not help you. The higher the quality can actually make it worse because there are less perfections to mask the banding.
-Uni directional - The problem occurs identically in both modes.
-Roll Vs. Rigid - Both will produce banding. One just uses a higher head height than the other.
-Nothing in the service menu - You might be tempted to tool around in there to see if there is anything that will be of help. Don't waste your time. There is nothing to address the issue there.
-Editing profiles - I spent a lot of time tinkering with different profile adjustments. Reducing certain colors, increasing others. None of them work.
-Changing Versaworks settings - All the quality, profile, halftone, color management don't solve the problem. Nor will different file formats or Illustrator settings. I tried every combination of every settings. All with the same result.
-Adjusting the belt tension - This is Roland's go to for this problem. I **** you not we had 4 techs out here to "adjust" the belt tension because "it worked for somewhere else." No, it doesn't work and it took them 2 -months of tinkering with the belt to figure that out.

Hope that helps. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.


Hi all
I have been called to a customer with this problem yesterday. (i'm supporting Roland printers, since FJ-50 or around Y2K)
It's a standard LEJ, but the cause for vertical banding is highly likely the same.
I have other customers with this printer and haven't heard complaints like this before. We also had one in our showroom for almost a year and i didn't encounter vertical banding. (or it was so minimal, that i didn't realize it)

I did a lot of tests to figure out the possible cause.
It wasn't the pinch rollers.(i marked the positions of the pinch rollers on the vinyl)
It wasn't the media. (I tried different types)
It wasn't the print mode. (maybe somehow, see below)
I lubricated the rail and checked the belt tension and cleaned/lubed the gear and even replaced the scan motor. (i switched back to the original motor, because it didn't help and the original motor is almost new, like the whole machine)
I did tests after every intervention, to see if it improves/changes.
As a last ditch effort, i lubed the belt with a PTFE aerosol. After that, the banding was much less.
Then i reduced the head speed from 760 to 200 mm/s (in standard quality mode) and the print was perfect.

The customer needed a job to be done and he started production in V2 Generic Standard with 250mm/s head speed.
Since i didn't hear complaints, he seems to be happy with the quality. It's a see through application...
He of course isn't happy with the speed, but it's still faster than artistic mode and he gets the job done.

In my opinion, the problem is a slightly "swinging in the regulation" of the scan speed.
The main problem might be the very small drop size and the instant curing on this UV printer. (almost no dot gain)
On EcoSolvent printers the drops have a certain dot gain and may mask the scan speed variations.
This coincides with the original poster disabling the trailing lamp. This produces a little dot gain.

I have sent my findings to Roland Europe Headquarters.
Since it was only yesterday, i need to give them some time to react.
 

maravac

New Member
Hi all
I have been called to a customer with this problem yesterday. (i'm supporting Roland printers, since FJ-50 or around Y2K)
It's a standard LEJ, but the cause for vertical banding is highly likely the same.
I have other customers with this printer and haven't heard complaints like this before. We also had one in our showroom for almost a year and i didn't encounter vertical banding. (or it was so minimal, that i didn't realize it)

I did a lot of tests to figure out the possible cause.
It wasn't the pinch rollers.(i marked the positions of the pinch rollers on the vinyl)
It wasn't the media. (I tried different types)
It wasn't the print mode. (maybe somehow, see below)
I lubricated the rail and checked the belt tension and cleaned/lubed the gear and even replaced the scan motor. (i switched back to the original motor, because it didn't help and the original motor is almost new, like the whole machine)
I did tests after every intervention, to see if it improves/changes.
As a last ditch effort, i lubed the belt with a PTFE aerosol. After that, the banding was much less.
Then i reduced the head speed from 760 to 200 mm/s (in standard quality mode) and the print was perfect.

The customer needed a job to be done and he started production in V2 Generic Standard with 250mm/s head speed.
Since i didn't hear complaints, he seems to be happy with the quality. It's a see through application...
He of course isn't happy with the speed, but it's still faster than artistic mode and he gets the job done.

In my opinion, the problem is a slightly "swinging in the regulation" of the scan speed.
The main problem might be the very small drop size and the instant curing on this UV printer. (almost no dot gain)
On EcoSolvent printers the drops have a certain dot gain and may mask the scan speed variations.
This coincides with the original poster disabling the trailing lamp. This produces a little dot gain.

I have sent my findings to Roland Europe Headquarters.
Since it was only yesterday, i need to give them some time to react.

Hi,
thanks for you comments. I have to say, that unfortunately there's no change with our LEJ-640. Two weeks ago I was discussing with our vendor. Then they (as they told me) talked with some technician guy from Roland and they said to me, that there's one printing mode with fixed drop size (is is unofficial mode? I dont know) and if using it, there's no problem with the vertical banding. Well, I don't use the VersaWorks rip, I use the EFI Fiery XF and when I was creating the linearization and profiles, I used the 720x720 dpi mode. Maybe this is the mode they were talked about, becaouse only then my profiling module says that Print mode will be "Sharp (1 dot)" instead of Normal, which shows for 360x720, 720x1080, 720x1440 and 1440x1440 modes.
But we mostly use this 720x720 Sharp 1-dot mode and my experience is, that it does the vertical banding as well. And it is VERY visible.
I also tried to slow down the head-speed down to 250 mm/s, but there is still the banding. The only change is, that the stripes are thinner and more close to each other.

And by my opinion, slowing down the head speed is really HUGE DEGRADATION OF THE PRODUCTION!!! Why the hell the other UV printers work good (no vertical banding) and only Roland is problem? People from Roland should really do something for their customers - improve the technology, change the problematic parts in their printers for free, etc. Like the automobile companies do with their cars...

Did you try to print just simple one-color solid big square? Blue, Red, Black (but not only clean black printer ink, but mixed). The problem with the banding is most visible just in such a type of graphics.
 

Brian27

New Member
I did tests after every intervention, to see if it improves/changes.
As a last ditch effort, i lubed the belt with a PTFE aerosol. After that, the banding was much less.
Then i reduced the head speed from 760 to 200 mm/s (in standard quality mode) and the print was perfect.

After having 5 different techs come out to tinker with our belt we tried to lube up the belt/pully as there was a little vibration but that didn't do anything for us.
Using a slower head speed was one of the first things I tried and it resulted in even worse banding because there were no horizontal imperfections to mask the vertical lines. We had to print in High speed at all times or else the banding was unbearable.

I'm glad you were able to fix your customer's although I too am curious if you tried to print a large area of solid color. Especially black.
 

WitWolfy

New Member
The LEJ 640 I'm using is like 3 months so far, and it has given me NOTHING but problems since day one!!!!

If it wasnt the sheets that fed skew leading to skew prints and unwanted head strikes, it was the Yellow constantly disappearing! I swear we've done everything from:

-changing the dampers
-swapping heads
-swapping pumps
-replacing the tubes
-flushing the tubes

AND NOTHING WORKS!!!!

I cant print more than 2CC's yellow without it fading. You have no idea how much ink I had to waste through medium cleans just to get the yellow head to fire again just for a print or two just to experience the same thing over, over and over again!! Our technician says this printer isnt supposed to stand in direct sunlight but the sun only shines on it when the sun set, we even put up a welding curtain to block the "UV rays" which didnt help at all.

Screw this printer, every day is a living hell for me with this POS.
 

uvgerard

New Member
LED UV print quality

Hi,
thanks for you comments. I have to say, that unfortunately there's no change with our LEJ-640. Two weeks ago I was discussing with our vendor. Then they (as they told me) talked with some technician guy from Roland and they said to me, that there's one printing mode with fixed drop size (is is unofficial mode? I dont know) and if using it, there's no problem with the vertical banding. Well, I don't use the VersaWorks rip, I use the EFI Fiery XF and when I was creating the linearization and profiles, I used the 720x720 dpi mode. Maybe this is the mode they were talked about, becaouse only then my profiling module says that Print mode will be "Sharp (1 dot)" instead of Normal, which shows for 360x720, 720x1080, 720x1440 and 1440x1440 modes.
But we mostly use this 720x720 Sharp 1-dot mode and my experience is, that it does the vertical banding as well. And it is VERY visible.
I also tried to slow down the head-speed down to 250 mm/s, but there is still the banding. The only change is, that the stripes are thinner and more close to each other.

And by my opinion, slowing down the head speed is really HUGE DEGRADATION OF THE PRODUCTION!!! Why the hell the other UV printers work good (no vertical banding) and only Roland is problem? People from Roland should really do something for their customers - improve the technology, change the problematic parts in their printers for free, etc. Like the automobile companies do with their cars...

Did you try to print just simple one-color solid big square? Blue, Red, Black (but not only clean black printer ink, but mixed). The problem with the banding is most visible just in such a type of graphics.[/QUOTE

One of the reasons other UV inkjet printers have less issues with banding has much to do with the curing system used. Conventional systems use arc-lamps having abundance of UV output over a wide spectral range. Your printer uses LED-UV with narrow range and very low UV output. Ink and delivery system must be perfect where conventional UV-ink products are more forgiving and easier to work with.
 

cornholio

New Member
Yellow ink

The LEJ 640 I'm using is like 3 months so far, and it has given me NOTHING but problems since day one!!!!

If it wasnt the sheets that fed skew leading to skew prints and unwanted head strikes, it was the Yellow constantly disappearing! I swear we've done everything from:

-changing the dampers
-swapping heads
-swapping pumps
-replacing the tubes
-flushing the tubes

AND NOTHING WORKS!!!!

I cant print more than 2CC's yellow without it fading. You have no idea how much ink I had to waste through medium cleans just to get the yellow head to fire again just for a print or two just to experience the same thing over, over and over again!! Our technician says this printer isnt supposed to stand in direct sunlight but the sun only shines on it when the sun set, we even put up a welding curtain to block the "UV rays" which didnt help at all.

Screw this printer, every day is a living hell for me with this POS.


What ink do you use? There is EcoUV Ver.2-4.

Lately i had some issues with yellow Ver.2 as well.
Either they changed the formulation or just some bad batches... The dampers clog pretty fast.
First i changed the dampers and flushed the ink tubing.
It worked for a while for the customer with the ominous ink lot, but i had to backflush the dampers again.
For the other customer, i also flushed the tubes and changed the dampers. I also changed to a cartridge from another lot.
I'm waiting for Roland to acknoledge the problem...
 

davecich

New Member
All,

All UV printers are susceptible to vertical banding. It is almost always a squareness issue between the rails and gantry. Think about the carriage moving in a slight s pattern. It then effects dot placement. I have seen it on HP's, Oce's, EFIs, and CET has about 20 printers in their warehouse with this issue that I QC rejected. The only fix I ever saw was to change the dot pattern with a custom driver, or change the gantry or rails.

Hope that helps. Roland is a great company that is very customer friendly, the will figure it out and stand by its product.

Dave
 

maravac

New Member
Hmmm, I saw f.e. the print output from EFI H1625 LED (so it has the LED lamps too) and it was perfect, with no banding.
We use now the EcoUV v4 inks, before we had the EcoUV v2. Both of them produce the vertical banding. :(
 

WitWolfy

New Member
What ink do you use? There is EcoUV Ver.2-4.

Lately i had some issues with yellow Ver.2 as well.
Either they changed the formulation or just some bad batches... The dampers clog pretty fast.
First i changed the dampers and flushed the ink tubing.
It worked for a while for the customer with the ominous ink lot, but i had to backflush the dampers again.
For the other customer, i also flushed the tubes and changed the dampers. I also changed to a cartridge from another lot.
I'm waiting for Roland to acknoledge the problem...

Oh sorry!

I'm using version 4. I never experienced any trouble with version 3 when we first got it... The only reason we went to version 4 is because its a 500CC compared to the version 3's 220CC and get a bit more bang for your buck.

I'm starting to think it must be a damper thing, because when I do a medium clean it does fire on both yellow heads.. BUT, depending on the intensity of the yellow print... Lets say for Example: 6CC's+ it starts misfiring almost immediately!! Sometimes I get away with 2 or 3 sheets before it starts to fade... Heck I even went as far as to set a 5 minute preodic clean in each print to keep my pantones consistant! As you can imagine doesn't always work though...
 

maravac

New Member
Oh sorry!

I'm using version 4. I never experienced any trouble with version 3 when we first got it... The only reason we went to version 4 is because its a 500CC compared to the version 3's 220CC and get a bit more bang for your buck.

I'm starting to think it must be a damper thing, because when I do a medium clean it does fire on both yellow heads.. BUT, depending on the intensity of the yellow print... Lets say for Example: 6CC's+ it starts misfiring almost immediately!! Sometimes I get away with 2 or 3 sheets before it starts to fade... Heck I even went as far as to set a 5 minute preodic clean in each print to keep my pantones consistant! As you can imagine doesn't always work though...

Two months ago we also had problem with the density of yellow ink. Simply, all print outs were kind of blue-casted. Technician guy came to us and changed a filter for yellow - it was clogged by dirtyness (or maybe just small particles from the solidified ink). Since then yellow works without problems.
 

WitWolfy

New Member
Two months ago we also had problem with the density of yellow ink. Simply, all print outs were kind of blue-casted. Technician guy came to us and changed a filter for yellow - it was clogged by dirtyness (or maybe just small particles from the solidified ink). Since then yellow works without problems.

by "filter" I assume you mean dampers... I've replaced the dampers 3 times already in a time span of 2-3 months... Same problem, all the other colours print 100%, except yellow. Blows my mind!
 

maravac

New Member
by "filter" I assume you mean dampers... I've replaced the dampers 3 times already in a time span of 2-3 months... Same problem, all the other colours print 100%, except yellow. Blows my mind!

ASSY INK DAMPER L 3FAI SJ-1045
FILTER (M) SERGE MIST 2 SC,XC,SJ,XJ...

Copied from the invoice....
 

cornholio

New Member
Yellow trouble

by "filter" I assume you mean dampers... I've replaced the dampers 3 times already in a time span of 2-3 months... Same problem, all the other colours print 100%, except yellow. Blows my mind!

If you haven't already done it, flush the ink lines before you change the dampers.

In my cases, the problems started with EcoUV2 ink lot# 5A19D1B101 exp. Oct/18 2016

If you are very unlucky, the filter in the printhead manifold can also be clogged.

After using ink from different lots, the problem doesn't seem to return.
 

cornholio

New Member
Solution for vertical banding

All,

All UV printers are susceptible to vertical banding. It is almost always a squareness issue between the rails and gantry. Think about the carriage moving in a slight s pattern. It then effects dot placement. I have seen it on HP's, Oce's, EFIs, and CET has about 20 printers in their warehouse with this issue that I QC rejected. The only fix I ever saw was to change the dot pattern with a custom driver, or change the gantry or rails.

Hope that helps. Roland is a great company that is very customer friendly, the will figure it out and stand by its product.

Dave

Today i got a reply from Roland Europe regarding vertical banding.
They say, that it can only be reduced by using "fix dot". I think this means using only only the large dot size.
Unfortunately they say, Versaworks isn't capable to do this.

Later this week, i need to do regular service on two LEJ's.
These customers haven't yet complained about vertical banding.
If i find the time, i will do some tests with a capable Rip. (Ergosoft Posterprint, Caldera)
 

maravac

New Member
Today i got a reply from Roland Europe regarding vertical banding.
They say, that it can only be reduced by using "fix dot". I think this means using only only the large dot size.
Unfortunately they say, Versaworks isn't capable to do this.

Later this week, i need to do regular service on two LEJ's.
These customers haven't yet complained about vertical banding.
If i find the time, i will do some tests with a capable Rip. (Ergosoft Posterprint, Caldera)

HA!
I use the EFI Fiery XF and as I said, I print in 720x720 dpi Mode Sharp (1 dot). I suppose this is the mode that Roland recommends to fix the vertical banding problem. But I have to say to you: even this mode DOES NOT HELP. I can show you lots of photos I made (just taken pictures of my printouts made in this mode) and the vertical banding is clearly evident on them. :(

What will the Roland Europe specialists say now???
 

WitWolfy

New Member
If you haven't already done it, flush the ink lines before you change the dampers.

In my cases, the problems started with EcoUV2 ink lot# 5A19D1B101 exp. Oct/18 2016

If you are very unlucky, the filter in the printhead manifold can also be clogged.

After using ink from different lots, the problem doesn't seem to return.

Do you mean the manifold housing or dampers? I remember once, the technician also replaced a housing on top of the manifold (looked like a round black washer of sorts that got inserted on top of the housing). If possible can you link me to a picture?
 
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