Level or Parallel for parking garage signage?

[Hendersign]

Parallel or Level? Installer of 5 yrs, and installing first parking garage signage. The customer asked for level signs at height, but both the bottoms of the pre-cast Double-Ts and the floors slope at different angles. The result is that multiple overhead suspended signs appear to "stair step" and others just plain look odd since they don't follow the same horizontal lines as those of the overhead deck. Is there a standard convention or reference available for parking garage installs? Thanks,

 

[Billct2]

the eye doesn't lie, well actually it does. It's a judgement call that has to be made with the client's approval.

 

[OldPaint]

you got one of these????? USE IT))))

 

[Billct2]

Sometimes level doesn't look level, as an old sign painter you should know that mechanical solutions don't always apply to visual problems.

 

[OldPaint]

LEVEL is only the start point..........with a level.......IF YOU FEEL the need to adjust ok.........sorta like the FORD VAN SIDES.........roof runs down hill to back.........center body line runs up hill to rear....lettering in between, find as level line ADJUST......TO EYE.........

 

[mark-s]

I start with a hand level, check it and if needed adjust by eye.

mark-s

 

[signbrad]

A level is useful, as is a plumb. So is a yardstick. In the end, though, you must trust your eye.
When I was a cub in the 70s I was told: If it looks right, it IS right.

Or, you can have the client make the call. They take responsibility, you take the money.

Brad in Kansas City

 

[Hendersign]

Level or Parallel or how parallel trumps plumb

Well, I guess I should have posted a visual image. Had the Royal Librarian to King Louis the XIV looked at my signs with his new invention resting on top he would have tossed it and we'd be hanging signs with the Egyptian's favorite tool. Having a touch of OCD I always want my work to be perfect and look perfect. From interior installs in older buildings I know that sometimes I can't have both. If it looks right, no one will pull out a pocket level to check to see if it is. Often parallel trumps plumb in those environments. I think next time I'll hang them be eye. I had hoped that someone in this community might be able to point me to some published reference for exterior and/or parking garages. Although I have the end-users design standards, they all deal with size, font, distance, etc..., not the practical aspects of making it "look good" when it goes up.

Thanks to all for your responses.

 

[Moze]

I've done quite a few parking garages and this is typical of every single one - without exception. Whether the signs should be truly level or 'look level' is a call that should be made by the customer, not the installer.

It's one of the first conversations I have when installing parking garage signage. I phrase it something like this: "Just so we're on the same page, there are multiple locations where signs are being installed where the install portion/section/wall/beam is not level. I assume you want the signs installed level - is that correct?". I've never had a customer want a sign installed off-level just because the install surface is off-level.

 

[Moze]

If it looks right, no one will pull out a pocket level to check to see if it is.

I had hoped that someone in this community might be able to point me to some published reference for exterior and/or parking garages. Although I have the end-users design standards, they all deal with size, font, distance, etc..., not the practical aspects of making it "look good" when it goes up.

I've had more than one customer come in with a level to check if a sign is truly level. In one case it was because the sign was rectangular but then the end had a large swoosh as part of the logo. It made the sign look left-heavy and even though I knew it was level, it did look off-level. It was pretty annoying. Anyway, the customer stood there and stared at it, left, came back with a little torpedo level and checked it. Then they asked for my level and checked it again.

In another instance, I had a girl that worked in the office I was installing in come out with a torpedo level and a tape measure and climb up on the desk the letters were installed above. She proceeded to put the level on various letters because 'they looked off' (a lot of curved letters next to straight letters). She then started measuring the distance between letters and said that it was wrong because some were closer than others. Obviously it wasn't wrong, it was put up with a pattern and it was just how the kerning was. She was up there so long checking it, I took a picture and texted it to my customer (another sign company). Even though the letters were correct, the girl insisted they be removed and reinstalled while she watched and approved the various ones she thought were spaced wrong or that looked off-level. I told her that was fine, but I would need to confirm with my customer (the sign company) that I do that, since I would be charging them extra. The girl was fine with it, I called the sign company, they nearly went ballistic but said if that's what she wanted then do it and they would back-charge them. One of the most annoying/frustrating installs I've ever done.


As far as a published reference, I highly doubt anything like that exists. A slanted wall or beam doesn't mean a sign should be installed off-level.

 

[TimToad]

While the overhead beams and structure may not be "level" to the ground, the roadway the cars drive on except for whatever incline it is on, usually is. That being said, if I'm sitting in my car on a level plane, my brain will accept as "straight" a sign that matches the "level" plane I'm on easier than on that matches the ascending or descending angle of the ceiling above me.

 

[Hendersign]

I've done quite a few parking garages and this is typical of every single one - without exception. Whether the signs should be truly level or 'look level' is a call that should be made by the customer, not the installer.

It's one of the first conversations I have when installing parking garage signage. I phrase it something like this: "Just so we're on the same page, there are multiple locations where signs are being installed where the install portion/section/wall/beam is not level. I assume you want the signs installed level - is that correct?". I've never had a customer want a sign installed off-level just because the install surface is off-level.

Thanks for your response and for taking the time to post the pics. While I'm sure you are right, it may take a while (and a few more garages) before I come around to that viewpoint. (Every fiber of my optic nerve is encouraging me to go straighten your signs right after I'm done with mine.) I will certainly take your advice about having that "on the same page" conversation up front. Thanks again.

 

[T_K]

you got one of these????? USE IT))))

This is not useful in situations where surrounding horizontal lines are not level. I had a string of installs a few years ago where I had to make judgment calls on whether true level or eye level was correct. The frame I was installing on was not squared up properly.

In the end, the deciding factors are whether the customer is happy with the final product, you get paid for the job, and you protect the reputation of you/your company.

 

[Moze]

Thanks for your response and for taking the time to post the pics. While I'm sure you are right, it may take a while (and a few more garages) before I come around to that viewpoint. (Every fiber of my optic nerve is encouraging me to go straighten your signs right after I'm done with mine.) I will certainly take your advice about having that "on the same page" conversation up front. Thanks again.

You bet.

There are instances where the slope is very gradual and installing the sign level makes the sign look off. Those are the situations that bug me. But that's the benefit of ensuring the customer makes the call. If they tell you they want them installed level, that OCD-it-doesn't-look-right worrying goes away pretty quick. Not sure how many signs you're doing, but parking garages can be pretty tiring. I promise, as long as you install them per customer specs, you'll stop worrying if they look right once you're a couple hundred signs in...

 

[Moze]

On the flip side....here's another classic installers conundrum I've ran into more than once:


You have a long set of letters to install on a brick wall...

You level and hang your pattern...

You realize the baseline of the letters on the pattern, although level, isn't following the mortar line...

Although not obvious to the naked eye, the building/brick/mortar lines isn't level...

If you install the letters "correctly" so that they're level, they'll look off and stand out like a sore thumb because they won't follow the mortar line...

If you follow the mortar line - no one will ever notice it's not level, but it's technically "incorrect".


It's something that used to frazzle me, but I've learned to put the decision on the customer. Explain it isn't level, SHOW them it isn't level, and then ask them if they want it installed level or if they want it to follow the mortar lines. In THOSE cases, I encourage them to follow the mortar line.

No one is ever going to say "that mortar line doesn't look level". But they WILL say "those letters aren't level - look how they don't follow the mortar lines".

 

[x2chris7x]

+1 for having the customer make the call! But signs that are level that are installed on a surface that isn't level REALLY bug me... The majority of people that see the signs will think the sign is not level, b/c people most would think the building HAS to be level... Just my 2 cents

 

[Gino]

Maybe it's me, but I think you should follow the lines of the surrounding area and what looks best to the masses. Afterall, we are the professionals, not them. They don't know any better and if we , as sign professionals, let something like this up to the customer..... your work looks odd. Why ?? Because they generally don't know any better. You can't use justifications of a truck goes uphill and downhill. You can't say the building isn't level. You are supposed to know what to do. If you don't, well..... then you're not a professional, letting your work up to them. You can let a maitre'd, pick a good wine or a vegetable stand person plug a watermelon for ya, cause that's part of their job. If you disagree, then say so and give your opinion, but unless you really know...... the professional should be doing his/her job.

 

[Moze]

To reiterate, we're talking about a parking garage.

Virtually any building that has a parking garage is going to have a property manager. That property manager, or those delegated by the property manager, have the final say on everything from signage to landscaping to when you can perform your work. If you go in and brashly do it "your way" because you're the professional and insist that your way is right when they find fault in it - guess who won't be installing signs there anymore...

It doesn't matter if it's a mom and pop business or a muti-million dollar corporation - when you leave, the customer has to be happy. It's a professional installer's job to provide the customer with their options and in some cases your opinion. But to insist on your opinion or not confer with the customer just because "you're the professional" is a quick way to lose a customer and your reputation.

 

[T_K]

Virtually any building that has a parking garage is going to have a property manager. That property manager, or those delegated by the property manager, have the final say on everything from signage to landscaping to when you can perform your work. If you go in and brashly do it "your way" because you're the professional and insist that your way is right when they find fault in it - guess who won't be installing signs there anymore.../QUOTE]

I think the part Gino has right is that WE'RE supposed to be the professionals. We have to know our stuff and give professional, informed, experienced input.

At the same time, like you mentioned, we give INPUT. We are not the decision makers. The customers are. That's why the customer places an "order".

 

[Moze]

Virtually any building that has a parking garage is going to have a property manager. That property manager, or those delegated by the property manager, have the final say on everything from signage to landscaping to when you can perform your work. If you go in and brashly do it "your way" because you're the professional and insist that your way is right when they find fault in it - guess who won't be installing signs there anymore.../QUOTE]

I think the part Gino has right is that WE'RE supposed to be the professionals. We have to know our stuff and give professional, informed, experienced input.

At the same time, like you mentioned, we give INPUT. We are not the decision makers. The customers are. That's why the customer places an "order".

I agree 100%.