Logo critique and advise please.

[neato]

They did not go to a sign shop looking for a business consultant. Know your role, everyone thinks they are smarter than the next and it just doesn't hold up. When my garbage man comes on Monday morning to empty my dumpster and it's not overflowing, I don't heed his advice that I need to make more sales calls because business is slow. He does not understand what I'm doing anymore than you understand what your client is after.
Your clients don't need you to succeed. They came to you for a logo, sign or whatever, get past your ego. You can do just fine in business with a crap logo, a crap name, a crap website and a crappy sign (I check all of the boxes myself) but for whatever reason too many chest pounders here don't seem to get this.

Well that's one way to run a business and many sign shops have this same mentality. But I don't think it has done any favors to this industry, our clients or to most urban landscapes.

I understand that viewpoint, but the fact is (as cliché as it may sound) the first impression people get of a business, for better or for worse, often times is the sign on their building.

Why wouldn't we want to help our clients succeed? Why do many here view that as being pretentious or egotistical? Even using the word "design" has ruffled feathers.

I get that a lot of clients don't want to listen to sound advice from us professionals, but I think that mentality has been perpetuated by this kind of thinking within the industry.

I think we owe it to ourselves and our customers to be more professional, there's more to the business than slapping vinyl on a 4x8 panel.

 

[Gino]

On your shingle outside your door, does it say sign designer, sign maker, consultant and business extraordinaire ?? It's nice to perhaps take a wild guess if something is a good name or good design, but what is your background in any of it, other than seeing others who have failed or succeeded ?? Did you train for it ?? Did you take a night course in it ?? Who do you think you are, just basing good advice on something you have no background in ?? The toad, the same thing..... Sure, we can give some subtle ideas or suggestions, but to be so far egotistical as to tell people what or how they should be, is just beyond your capabilities. What is your actual beabackground in marketing, advertising, budgets, knowledge of their particular product(s), strategies, funding, organization skills, strategies in general ?? Like mentioned, stick to what you know and try not to be a know-it-all.

Some of you people sport a mighty high opinion of yourselves. The look is not very fitting, however. Ya might try to take it down a notch or two..... it's becoming very tiring, listening to such nonsense.

 

[TimToad]

I find it highly ironic and no coincidence that when people ask about logo design or seek feedback on a logo, that the most frequently names mentioned as being the best on this site are Neato, Rick and a few others, not the mediocre hacks who disagree with his or my assessment of the design quality of most of our industry. Its no coincidence either that except for the trigger happy, anti-intellectuals here, My opinions and advice on good design are typically met with agrees and likes.

Those here who disagree with a few of us in a knee-jerk, reflexive way because they can't or won't admit they don't have the skills or talent to do better are the ones missing out on opportunities to attract better clients.

Excuse some of us for not dumbing ourselves down to the convential approach applied by those unable to produce better quality design.

I refuse to be insulted, intimidated or cajoled into mediocrity by the least talented among us. Anyone with an ounce of talent knows that without confidence in one's skills, persuading a client to strive for a better outcome is nearly impossible.

 

[equippaint]

On your shingle outside your door, does it say sign designer, sign maker, consultant and business extraordinaire ?? It's nice to perhaps take a wild guess if something is a good name or good design, but what is your background in any of it, other than seeing others who have failed or succeeded ?? Did you train for it ?? Did you take a night course in it ?? Who do you think you are, just basing good advice on something you have no background in ?? The toad, the same thing..... Sure, we can give some subtle ideas or suggestions, but to be so far egotistical as to tell people what or how they should be, is just beyond your capabilities. What is your actual beabackground in marketing, advertising, budgets, knowledge of their particular product(s), strategies, funding, organization skills, strategies in general ?? Like mentioned, stick to what you know and try not to be a know-it-all.

Some of you people sport a mighty high opinion of yourselves. The look is not very fitting, however. Ya might try to take it down a notch or two..... it's becoming very tiring, listening to such nonsense.

Agreed. I firmly believe you should stay in your lane. Fwiw, I have a marketing degree and steer clear of peoples personal business decisions. You were hired for a logo and a sign. Maybe some have watched too much Madmen and think thats what marketing actually is.
What makes you feel like some pro more than their banker, their accountant, their supplier reps and their own background.
Im not debating the merits of a good design. This is about respecting boundaries.

 

[neato]

Agreed. I firmly believe you should stay in your lane. ... You were hired for a logo and a sign.

I just shed a tear.

 

[equippaint]

I find it highly ironic and no coincidence that when people ask about logo design or seek feedback on a logo, that the most frequently names mentioned as being the best on this site are Neato, Rick and a few others, not the mediocre hacks who disagree with his or my assessment of the design quality of most of our industry. Its no coincidence either that except for the trigger happy, anti-intellectuals here, My opinions and advice on good design are typically met with agrees and likes.

Those here who disagree with a few of us in a knee-jerk, reflexive way because they can't or won't admit they don't have the skills or talent to do better are the ones missing out on opportunities to attract better clients.

Excuse some of us for not dumbing ourselves down to the convential approach applied by those unable to produce better quality design.

I refuse to be insulted, intimidated or cajoled into mediocrity by the least talented among us. Anyone with an ounce of talent knows that without confidence in one's skills, persuading a client to strive for a better outcome is nearly impossible.

i didnt realize the sign business was so intellectual. Guess thats why Gino makes such a good shrink.
I have a fairly strong financial background so Im going to try this to really dig in with my clients. When they tell me about the new equipment they bought, Ill start critiquing thier finances and tell them what machines were smart buys and which ones are going to make them fail. I can probably nail down the time that the bank will send out the repo team for them so they dont get caught with their pants down. They will thank me later for it.

 

[equippaint]

I just shed a tear.

By the looks of it, you dabble in branding? Thats not what this is about anyways. When was the lasts time you told a cleint their name sucked?

 

[TimToad]

i didnt realize the sign business was so intellectual. Guess thats why Gino makes such a good shrink.
I have a fairly strong financial background so Im going to try this to really dig in with my clients. When they tell me about the new equipment they bought, Ill start critiquing thier finances and tell them what machines were smart buys and which ones are going to make them fail. I can probably nail down the time that the bank will send out the repo team for them so they dont get caught with their pants down. They will thank me later for it.

Yes, you're a marketing and financial genius but one who admits he can't design much. Make your money, hire others to do what you can't do and churn the jobs through your shop and have a great life. Some of us here are in the business of being signmakers and graphic artists whose primary goal in life is to produce great design coupled with well built signs and make a good living while dealing with our clients the best way we've been trained to do. By aspiring on being the best we can be, not the opposite.

A few of you use that as a constant jab, when on most signmaking groups and forums, the way craftspeople like Neato and folks like myself apply our skills is the overriding principle to most aspire to, including most of the most well known and best in our craft.

Put that in your psyche evaluation and figure out where that puts you and you buddy in the grand scheme of things.

While you're at it, go look up what a straw man argument is as well as comparing apples to oranges and exaggeration in order to confirm one's bias.

Nobody has said that we should try to compel a client with a lousy name or business idea to change it, just to let them know that in our professional opinion, they have a better chance at succeeding and standing out among the crowd if they adopt one that can be more clearly understood and embraced.

Maybe instead of dumping on the people here who can actually design something better than the majority of the garbage our industry represents, critics need to up their own games.

 

[equippaint]

Ok bob vila. Would you get over yourself with all the craftsman nonsense already. You make signs, more than just vinyl, we get it. At the end of the day, its still a sign business and still a blue collar job even it hurts the ole fragile ego.
For the record, your endless quest to convince everyone how smart you are isnt working.

 

[TimToad]

Ok bob vila. Would you get over yourself with all the craftsman nonsense already. You make signs, more than just vinyl, we get it. At the end of the day, its still a sign business and still a blue collar job even it hurts the ole fragile ego.
For the record, your endless quest to convince everyone how smart you are isnt working.

That's hilarious!

I'm not here to convince you or the other reprobates of anything. Just stick to the shallow end of the pool, while others engage themselves in our quest to improve our "industry" for the better.

I guess the McIltrot brothers who have published"signCRAFT" magazine the last 40 years featuring the best and brightest in our field that they had the name all wrong.

Please remind us which issue your work is featured in? No, I didn't think so.

I'm going to hate breaking the news to my mentors, friends and lifetime sources of inspiration like Bob Behounek, Noel Weber, Carl Rohrs, Dan Antonelli, Rick Lawson, Joe Diaz, Lee Littlewood, and hundreds others that they've wasted their lives doing such a menial, blue collar grind and to quit trying to pass on their knowledge and expertise to others because you think so.

 

[TimToad]

Well that's one way to run a business and many sign shops have this same mentality. But I don't think it has done any favors to this industry, our clients or to most urban landscapes.

I understand that viewpoint, but the fact is (as cliché as it may sound) the first impression people get of a business, for better or for worse, often times is the sign on their building.

Why wouldn't we want to help our clients succeed? Why do many here view that as being pretentious or egotistical? Even using the word "design" has ruffled feathers.

I get that a lot of clients don't want to listen to sound advice from us professionals, but I think that mentality has been perpetuated by this kind of thinking within the industry.

I think we owe it to ourselves and our customers to be more professional, there's more to the business than slapping vinyl on a 4x8 panel.

Hmmm..... if I was entering this craft and trying to decide which path to emulate, do I follow the lead of a Dan Antonelli, a giant in our industry who has successfully transformed himself from a good traditional sign painter into a design/marketing/branding guru known worldwide, or someone who thinks being good at design automatically means you're egotistical and that good design should be considered a luxury and afterthought for our clients?

Boy, that is a tough one.

 

[Gino]

 

[kcollinsdesign]

I managed to get a BA with a course of study centered around both graphic design and rhetoric (double major). During that time, I was painting signs for a living and started a successful multi-million dollar sign shop. I have spent a lifetime studying advertising art, and my commitment to this business was cemented when I encountered the artists that Mr. Toad mentions above. Our shop hosted one of the biggest Letterhead events ever, and I continue to follow and support all the artists that support the art and craft of this business. Good design has always been an essential element of the businesses I have been involved with and continues to be the the driving force in what I do now.

In addition to a lifetime commitment to design excellence, I have also racked up considerable experience in the operation of small business, not only from running my own but helping clients launch and grow theirs. Many of my clients are still with me; I grew as they grew; and through that experience plus continued studies I feel that I can qualify myself not only as a sign designer but a marketing and business consultant. I have a deep portfolio of successful clients, and boxes of awards not only from the sign industry but the local community, the Chamber of Commerce, and other business and civic groups.

Like all businesses, there are good and bad sign shops, successful and unsuccessful. I have been involved with some incredible sign businesses who couldn't design their way out of a paper bag, but provide excellent fabrication, installation, and maintenance services. One trend that has developed over my time in this business has been the lack of design training. I'm going to sound like a cranky old man, but back in the day you had to be a good artist to be in the sign businesses. There was no vinyl lettering, digital printing, downloadable clip art, or 3D routing. A new sign man or woman had to learn how to brush letter, draw and paint credible images, hand carve, and prepare hand drawn sketches to sell clients. With the advent of computers, practically anybody with a mouse and a pulse can get into this business. While some of these technical advances have been a wonder, and have enabled talented artists to take their craft further then they ever dreamed, there has also been a general fall out of art talent going into this business as operators with no design background or ability have de-emphasized the importance of good design. Most shops pay their designers $15 - $20 / hour, and stress speed and quantity over quality.

With today's amazing technology, many shops are missing out on the business and profits that can be gained by providing excellent design, which by nature demands exploration into the client's business model and an understanding of their client's market and needs. Good sign design is a service much in demand, and smart clients recognize the value that an experienced designer can bring to their branding and marketing efforts.

 

[equippaint]

I managed to get a BA with a course of study centered around both graphic design and rhetoric (double major). During that time, I was painting signs for a living and started a successful multi-million dollar sign shop. I have spent a lifetime studying advertising art, and my commitment to this business was cemented when I encountered the artists that Mr. Toad mentions above. Our shop hosted one of the biggest Letterhead events ever, and I continue to follow and support all the artists that support the art and craft of this business. Good design has always been an essential element of the businesses I have been involved with and continues to be the the driving force in what I do now.

In addition to a lifetime commitment to design excellence, I have also racked up considerable experience in the operation of small business, not only from running my own but helping clients launch and grow theirs. Many of my clients are still with me; I grew as they grew; and through that experience plus continued studies I feel that I can qualify myself not only as a sign designer but a marketing and business consultant. I have a deep portfolio of successful clients, and boxes of awards not only from the sign industry but the local community, the Chamber of Commerce, and other business and civic groups.

Like all businesses, there are good and bad sign shops, successful and unsuccessful. I have been involved with some incredible sign businesses who couldn't design their way out of a paper bag, but provide excellent fabrication, installation, and maintenance services. One trend that has developed over my time in this business has been the lack of design training. I'm going to sound like a cranky old man, but back in the day you had to be a good artist to be in the sign businesses. There was no vinyl lettering, digital printing, downloadable clip art, or 3D routing. A new sign man or woman had to learn how to brush letter, draw and paint credible images, hand carve, and prepare hand drawn sketches to sell clients. With the advent of computers, practically anybody with a mouse and a pulse can get into this business. While some of these technical advances have been a wonder, and have enabled talented artists to take their craft further then they ever dreamed, there has also been a general fall out of art talent going into this business as operators with no design background or ability have de-emphasized the importance of good design. Most shops pay their designers $15 - $20 / hour, and stress speed and quantity over quality.

With today's amazing technology, many shops are missing out on the business and profits that can be gained by providing excellent design, which by nature demands exploration into the client's business model and an understanding of their client's market and needs. Good sign design is a service much in demand, and smart clients recognize the value that an experienced designer can bring to their branding and marketing efforts.

Multi million dollar sign cos are unicorns. Do you even understand how to valuate a business? I look at listings all of the time and if youre not either huge wholesale or high in the air electrical you wont even touch 1m let alone a "multi-million" valuation. Why all of the nonsense? You give terrible advice. You really think people are going to buy your multi-million dollar valuation when you keep encouraging everyone to wholesale everything from their living rooms? You will not make big dollars without volume period. Definately not by designing and wholesaling either. I dont care how you want to run your business but quit preaching on false pretenses. There are people here that dont know any better and take it as the gospel.

 

[kcollinsdesign]

Pretty strong words, compadre! Maybe we were up in the air 130' installing signs for national accounts and putting up electronic billboards, in addition to crafting quality signs with an emphasis on design. It is possible to build a reputation based on excellent design and service, gradually acquire a staff of highly competent installers (union electricians) and a fleet of cranes and service vehicles, and have annual billings in excess of several million dollars. Don't be so quick to judge...

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

Of the very few (million dollar plus) sign companies around here, they seem like franchise/channel letter sign-mills. They put little effort into designing anything custom for "the little guy". Some of the best designs are the old (smaller) companies that have been in the business for 40+ years. Most everyone else is just bland.

I've seen that when I put effort into designing that it pays off. I've got 10+ calls on "The Bend" sign you all helped with a year or so ago... So far none on the "MASSAGE" sign though.

 

[equippaint]

Pretty strong words, compadre! Maybe we were up in the air 130' installing signs for national accounts and putting up electronic billboards, in addition to crafting quality signs with an emphasis on design. It is possible to build a reputation based on excellent design and service, gradually acquire a staff of highly competent installers (union electricians) and a fleet of cranes and service vehicles, and have annual billings in excess of several million dollars. Don't be so quick to judge...

the maybes and hypotheticals tell the story. Annual gross revenue is not what determines the value of a business. 130' install from a company thats pushes design? You do realize thats out of the capabilities of most companies right? The reach alone will require an AT crane minimum, then you need a way to get guys up there with another crane or swing stage.
The scale required and associated overhead to do this work would not allow you to ever be competitive in the design and sign work you talk about doing (business cards). I stand by my bs call here.

 

[kcollinsdesign]

In our town, and surrounding towns in our service area, freestanding signs may have a maximum height of 100 feet above grade when located within 1,320 feet of the right-of-way line of a Federal Aid Interstate Highway interchange. I am not a crane operator or an electrician, but we had highly skilled union employees who worked on these signs on a regular basis. We also had a small outdoor plant, in addition to installing structures for ourselves we furnished and installed structures for a local outdoor company, changed out faces, and performed required maintenance. On these jobs, my duties included sales, structural design, coordination with the outdoor structure and LED billboard vendors, working with certified engineers, local code issues, IDOT certification, and FAA compliance. One of the most rewarding jobs I had was designing outdoor advertising for our local clients, including creative and art direction. Somehow we also managed to create award winning signs for local businesses including hospitals, schools, entertainment venues, and sports complexes.

I left that business a number of years ago (they are still quite successful and growing) and spent several years consulting and working with other sign companies. My clients have remained faithful, and I now specialize in marketing and design. I am happy to let the excellent full-service sign companies in my area have the fabrication, installation and maintenance business that my work generates.

 

[DerbyCitySignGuy]

For what it's worth, the last three sign companies I've worked for were all doing $2 million plus a year. None of them are even top three for this area. None of them are chains.

Everybody in this thread needs to chill out, because you don't have to do one or the other. If you're trying to do JUST design or you're doing JUST fabrication, there's a pretty good reason you think million dollar sign companies are "unicorns". Cool design and "blue collar" fabrication aren't mutually exclusive.

 

[TimToad]

For what it's worth, the last three sign companies I've worked for were all doing $2 million plus a year. None of them are even top three for this area. None of them are chains.

Everybody in this thread needs to chill out, because you don't have to do one or the other. If you're trying to do JUST design or you're doing JUST fabrication, there's a pretty good reason you think million dollar sign companies are "unicorns". Cool design and "blue collar" fabrication aren't mutually exclusive.

I think who needs to chill out as you put it are those who engage in the art of personal attack and insult more often than the art of offering bonafide advice and constructive help to those seeking it. I and others offered bonafide advice and observations about the logo in question and the kangaroo court took the thread off the rails AGAIN just like they do whenever someone they aren't aligned with posts.

I don't know what happened to the new guidelines and moderation of the threads to nip some of this stuff in the butt, but it's obviously not being attended to.