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Suggestions Looking for a flatbed printer

Rickey J

New Member
I am looking to add a used flatbed printer to my arsenal. I am looking for suggestions on a brand that is reliable and good for a first time user. I am not concerned with speed as much as I am with quality. I am open to a hybrid or true flatbed. I will be using it mostly for ACM and corrugated material. Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
Thank you.


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Technician

Drive it hard
You don’t tell how big flatbed you need But Arizona 135GT is a good step in machine. You can attach a Roll to roll to it if wanted to.
 

Rickey J

New Member
You don’t tell how big flatbed you need But Arizona 135GT is a good step in machine. You can attach a Roll to roll to it if wanted to.

Thank you for the info and the size I am looking for is at least a 4x8.


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garyroy

New Member
I hope your good at what you do. A used flatbed will bring some challenges.
No warranty, no tech support, maybe even no service manual.
Then you have to move it from where it is to where you want it.
Used heads, used bearings, so-so software along with needed firmware updates.
Techs that won't want to touch it. Local dealers that couldn't care less. It's been done before but get ready for a ride.
It's all you bro. It's not for the faint of heart. Let us know how it goes :cool:
 

Rickey J

New Member
I hope your good at what you do. A used flatbed will bring some challenges.
No warranty, no tech support, maybe even no service manual.
Then you have to move it from where it is to where you want it.
Used heads, used bearings, so-so software along with needed firmware updates.
Techs that won't want to touch it. Local dealers that couldn't care less. It's been done before but get ready for a ride.
It's all you bro. It's not for the faint of heart. Let us know how it goes :cool:

Yeah, I am aware of the challenges that come with a used machine. I have also found a couple companies that offer refurbed units with warranties. I am just trying to narrow down my search from the good and bad.


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axelmk

New Member
Rickey,
We've had our HP Latex r1000 Flatbed for almost 4 years now and the Quality and consistency on rigid boards as well as roll to roll has been really good. Absolutely NO banding.
Not the cheapest but Well worth the price for us.
 
There are a lot of options in both the used and new entry level flatbed market, the most common names on this forum are Vanguard and Digitech. They both offer good machines and have pros and cons.

Vanguard is owned by Durst and the founder recently passed away - in my opinion these are drawbacks as they are losing some of their competitive advantage they had as a smaller independent company and their leader was the key to their success. Their printers are very impressive and many people on this forum have Vanguards and swear by them. Plus their pricing used to be competitive - but since the buyout it seems they are becoming more expensive, but still a good value. One other note, since they got purchased by Durst, I've noticed it takes longer and is more difficult to get support - before I could call or email one of the techs I had as a contact in my google contact list and get a response. The last time I called for support I was lost in the Durst Support queue for like 3 - 4 days before I got a call back.

Digitech makes machines everyone who has one raves about. They are made in the USA from a lot of USA made parts/patent designs and seem to have great support. The issue I have with Digitech is that they mainly focus on CMYK only, high speed machines - so print quality isn't as good as some other machines. Also, they tend to be more expensive for an entry level machine (because their machines are not really entry level - they are mid to high volume level and also made in the USA - which probably adds costs).

Other machines you can consider (grouped with explanations - probably missing some but this is a pretty good list - I also excluded higher end machines like SwissQ because the are not entry level):

Flora, StratoJet, Fluid Color, CET -

This group either makes or imports their printers (CET and Fluid Color both sell Handtop machines, Flora imports and sells Flora's from China - which is the same printer Vanguard imports and retrofits - also Vanguard use to be part of CET but split off due to ownership disputes in 2015 or 2016). If I had to choose, I would probably be in this category or with one of the two companies listed above, because their main business is these types of large format, flatbed printers and they offer the best value when factoring quality of equipment, capacity of equipment (most machines can print 8+ boards an hour in sellable modes), and support. Also, I think all of these companies offer CMYKW, or CMYKlclmW, and possibly CMYKlclmNW ink configurations with good print head technology giving some of the best imaging quality on the market.

-------------

HP Large Format, EFI, Agfa, Oce Arizonas, Fuji Acuity

This group is made up of big names that are large corporations offering a variety of printing equipment. Most of the equipment in this group is going to be on par with the listed group above, but you might not get the support/special knowledge of a smaller company like StratoJet or Fluid Color. Some machines such as the HP and Oce are proprietary tech, and others are reselling machines that they may or may not modify (such as Fuji and EFI). All these machines are going to be a good option for small to mid and even some high volume print shops, but the real value/difference will be in the support - we have a Fuji Acuity and the support is nonexistent, so we will not buy another fuji in the future. Oce makes the Fuji printer and people tend to love the Oce support - so the machines are good, just need to have the correct support for the machines which Fuji doesn't have in the Pacific Northwest in my opinion.

We had an HP (not their flatbed) but it wasn't nearly as good as we wanted and since there wasn't much local support (sold through several distributors, large and small) we had issues we couldn't resolve/get support on so we moved on and sold the HP.

EFI and Agfa are huge names in the printing industry and their entry machines are decent, but I still think you pay more for the names/support vs. with other companies.

-------------

Mutoh, Mimaki, Epson, Roland

This group is what I consider the low end, targeting small mom and pop sign shops, offering an entry level price point but a cheap printer typically. For example I've seen Roland offer printers that only print one or two boards an hour. The Epson is a nice printer, but doesn't have nematic registration pins and cuts corners that just don't make sense to any production shop. I don't have much experience with Mutoh or Mimaki but I see on a lot of threads people are having issues with their flatbed machines. All four of these machines remind me of the HP printers - they are typically sold through distributors who sell them machines and then can offer little training or support after the sale (which is different when working with a company who sells their printers and services them directly vs. relying on distributors to do the servicing). If this is all you got/can afford it will probably work with a lot of effort, but it's not the options I would look to build a strong large format printing business around, it's more for the small shop that wants to be able to offer direct printing in house at a lower cost because they don't have a ton of demand (like a shop that prints 100 boards a day or so vs. a shop that might print 4-6 boards a day).


------

What I'd recommend is looking at each of these companies' websites and then going to a site like Global Garage to see what brands are selling as used - you might be able to pick up a steal of a deal. You also have to ask yourself though why are so many of "x company" being sold as used machines vs. other companies that only have one or two machines being sold. For example Fuji and Oce have a ton of resales on Global Garage, but DigiTech doesn't even have a single machine being resold...

Next, I'd consider hybrid vs. true flatbed printers. We have both flatbed and hybrid printers and if I could only have one - I would go hybrid all day long. We use our hybrid printers to print banners, wall covering, vinyl decals, static cling, etc. which we can't do on a fixed bed - but our fixed flatbed can do great registration front to back and has a vacuum that is strong enough to print on many materials that have some warp that we can't run on the belt system.

Finally, how big and what capabilities do you want - I wouldn't buy anything smaller than a 4x8 table if it is a fixed flatbed or any hybrid smaller than 64 inches. I consider a 2 inch print thickness a minimum, and at least CMYK+W for ink sets - we only run CMYKlclm and have N channel inks in some of our printers, but we do fine art printing onto wood, metal, etc. so it's important to have large color gamut and smooth gradients with the light inks. We use white ink quite often and for some customers who spent 50K a year plus with us, it was the key to getting their business so that is also a factor. IF you are only going after the occasional yard sign job or some direct print on foam board your needs will be different. Also, LED cured bulbs are the most popular nowadays and I wouldn't consider a mercury vapor system anymore (but I still have three UV machines with MV bulbs).

Feel free to message me if you want any more feedback, I have worked with/purchased/demoed almost all the companies listed above and have contacts at many of the companies I can refer you to.

Best of luck!
 

ABA Visibility Products

Premium Subscriber
Two things to consider--

1) The Digitech does not need the light cyan and light magenta inks. The dot size is small enough to get great skin tones without the need of the light inks. Looks perfect!
2) We have a used CMYK FB700 you're welcome to speak with us about. We don't have it running light cyan and light magenta as it's mainly been used for yard signs. Give Bryan a call at 801-305-1655 or email sales@abacatalog.com if you're interest.

Thanks
 

JWitkowski

New Member
There are a lot of options in both the used and new entry level flatbed market, the most common names on this forum are Vanguard and Digitech. They both offer good machines and have pros and cons.

Vanguard is owned by Durst and the founder recently passed away - in my opinion these are drawbacks as they are losing some of their competitive advantage they had as a smaller independent company and their leader was the key to their success. Their printers are very impressive and many people on this forum have Vanguards and swear by them. Plus their pricing used to be competitive - but since the buyout it seems they are becoming more expensive, but still a good value. One other note, since they got purchased by Durst, I've noticed it takes longer and is more difficult to get support - before I could call or email one of the techs I had as a contact in my google contact list and get a response. The last time I called for support I was lost in the Durst Support queue for like 3 - 4 days before I got a call back.

Digitech makes machines everyone who has one raves about. They are made in the USA from a lot of USA made parts/patent designs and seem to have great support. The issue I have with Digitech is that they mainly focus on CMYK only, high speed machines - so print quality isn't as good as some other machines. Also, they tend to be more expensive for an entry level machine (because their machines are not really entry level - they are mid to high volume level and also made in the USA - which probably adds costs).

Other machines you can consider (grouped with explanations - probably missing some but this is a pretty good list - I also excluded higher end machines like SwissQ because the are not entry level):

Flora, StratoJet, Fluid Color, CET -

This group either makes or imports their printers (CET and Fluid Color both sell Handtop machines, Flora imports and sells Flora's from China - which is the same printer Vanguard imports and retrofits - also Vanguard use to be part of CET but split off due to ownership disputes in 2015 or 2016). If I had to choose, I would probably be in this category or with one of the two companies listed above, because their main business is these types of large format, flatbed printers and they offer the best value when factoring quality of equipment, capacity of equipment (most machines can print 8+ boards an hour in sellable modes), and support. Also, I think all of these companies offer CMYKW, or CMYKlclmW, and possibly CMYKlclmNW ink configurations with good print head technology giving some of the best imaging quality on the market.

-------------

HP Large Format, EFI, Agfa, Oce Arizonas, Fuji Acuity

This group is made up of big names that are large corporations offering a variety of printing equipment. Most of the equipment in this group is going to be on par with the listed group above, but you might not get the support/special knowledge of a smaller company like StratoJet or Fluid Color. Some machines such as the HP and Oce are proprietary tech, and others are reselling machines that they may or may not modify (such as Fuji and EFI). All these machines are going to be a good option for small to mid and even some high volume print shops, but the real value/difference will be in the support - we have a Fuji Acuity and the support is nonexistent, so we will not buy another fuji in the future. Oce makes the Fuji printer and people tend to love the Oce support - so the machines are good, just need to have the correct support for the machines which Fuji doesn't have in the Pacific Northwest in my opinion.

We had an HP (not their flatbed) but it wasn't nearly as good as we wanted and since there wasn't much local support (sold through several distributors, large and small) we had issues we couldn't resolve/get support on so we moved on and sold the HP.

EFI and Agfa are huge names in the printing industry and their entry machines are decent, but I still think you pay more for the names/support vs. with other companies.

-------------

Mutoh, Mimaki, Epson, Roland

This group is what I consider the low end, targeting small mom and pop sign shops, offering an entry level price point but a cheap printer typically. For example I've seen Roland offer printers that only print one or two boards an hour. The Epson is a nice printer, but doesn't have nematic registration pins and cuts corners that just don't make sense to any production shop. I don't have much experience with Mutoh or Mimaki but I see on a lot of threads people are having issues with their flatbed machines. All four of these machines remind me of the HP printers - they are typically sold through distributors who sell them machines and then can offer little training or support after the sale (which is different when working with a company who sells their printers and services them directly vs. relying on distributors to do the servicing). If this is all you got/can afford it will probably work with a lot of effort, but it's not the options I would look to build a strong large format printing business around, it's more for the small shop that wants to be able to offer direct printing in house at a lower cost because they don't have a ton of demand (like a shop that prints 100 boards a day or so vs. a shop that might print 4-6 boards a day).


------

What I'd recommend is looking at each of these companies' websites and then going to a site like Global Garage to see what brands are selling as used - you might be able to pick up a steal of a deal. You also have to ask yourself though why are so many of "x company" being sold as used machines vs. other companies that only have one or two machines being sold. For example Fuji and Oce have a ton of resales on Global Garage, but DigiTech doesn't even have a single machine being resold...

Next, I'd consider hybrid vs. true flatbed printers. We have both flatbed and hybrid printers and if I could only have one - I would go hybrid all day long. We use our hybrid printers to print banners, wall covering, vinyl decals, static cling, etc. which we can't do on a fixed bed - but our fixed flatbed can do great registration front to back and has a vacuum that is strong enough to print on many materials that have some warp that we can't run on the belt system.

Finally, how big and what capabilities do you want - I wouldn't buy anything smaller than a 4x8 table if it is a fixed flatbed or any hybrid smaller than 64 inches. I consider a 2 inch print thickness a minimum, and at least CMYK+W for ink sets - we only run CMYKlclm and have N channel inks in some of our printers, but we do fine art printing onto wood, metal, etc. so it's important to have large color gamut and smooth gradients with the light inks. We use white ink quite often and for some customers who spent 50K a year plus with us, it was the key to getting their business so that is also a factor. IF you are only going after the occasional yard sign job or some direct print on foam board your needs will be different. Also, LED cured bulbs are the most popular nowadays and I wouldn't consider a mercury vapor system anymore (but I still have three UV machines with MV bulbs).

Feel free to message me if you want any more feedback, I have worked with/purchased/demoed almost all the companies listed above and have contacts at many of the companies I can refer you to.

Best of luck!
Now that's a thorough response!
 

parrott

New Member
Two things to consider--

1) The Digitech does not need the light cyan and light magenta inks. The dot size is small enough to get great skin tones without the need of the light inks. Looks perfect!
2) We have a used CMYK FB700 you're welcome to speak with us about. We don't have it running light cyan and light magenta as it's mainly been used for yard signs. Give Bryan a call at 801-305-1655 or email sales@abacatalog.com if you're interest.

Thanks
Very true. When you are running 4 picoliter drop size there is no need for light colors. I would put Digitech’s quality up against anybodies. We print a ton of acrylic for a customer that cannot achieve the same quality or color on their Fuji flatbeds. Our consistency on our Digitech is unmatchable in my opinion.
 

CMYKprnt

New Member
There are a lot of options in both the used and new entry level flatbed market, the most common names on this forum are Vanguard and Digitech. They both offer good machines and have pros and cons.

Vanguard is owned by Durst and the founder recently passed away - in my opinion these are drawbacks as they are losing some of their competitive advantage they had as a smaller independent company and their leader was the key to their success. Their printers are very impressive and many people on this forum have Vanguards and swear by them. Plus their pricing used to be competitive - but since the buyout it seems they are becoming more expensive, but still a good value. One other note, since they got purchased by Durst, I've noticed it takes longer and is more difficult to get support - before I could call or email one of the techs I had as a contact in my google contact list and get a response. The last time I called for support I was lost in the Durst Support queue for like 3 - 4 days before I got a call back.

Digitech makes machines everyone who has one raves about. They are made in the USA from a lot of USA made parts/patent designs and seem to have great support. The issue I have with Digitech is that they mainly focus on CMYK only, high speed machines - so print quality isn't as good as some other machines. Also, they tend to be more expensive for an entry level machine (because their machines are not really entry level - they are mid to high volume level and also made in the USA - which probably adds costs).

Other machines you can consider (grouped with explanations - probably missing some but this is a pretty good list - I also excluded higher end machines like SwissQ because the are not entry level):

Flora, StratoJet, Fluid Color, CET -

This group either makes or imports their printers (CET and Fluid Color both sell Handtop machines, Flora imports and sells Flora's from China - which is the same printer Vanguard imports and retrofits - also Vanguard use to be part of CET but split off due to ownership disputes in 2015 or 2016). If I had to choose, I would probably be in this category or with one of the two companies listed above, because their main business is these types of large format, flatbed printers and they offer the best value when factoring quality of equipment, capacity of equipment (most machines can print 8+ boards an hour in sellable modes), and support. Also, I think all of these companies offer CMYKW, or CMYKlclmW, and possibly CMYKlclmNW ink configurations with good print head technology giving some of the best imaging quality on the market.

-------------

HP Large Format, EFI, Agfa, Oce Arizonas, Fuji Acuity

This group is made up of big names that are large corporations offering a variety of printing equipment. Most of the equipment in this group is going to be on par with the listed group above, but you might not get the support/special knowledge of a smaller company like StratoJet or Fluid Color. Some machines such as the HP and Oce are proprietary tech, and others are reselling machines that they may or may not modify (such as Fuji and EFI). All these machines are going to be a good option for small to mid and even some high volume print shops, but the real value/difference will be in the support - we have a Fuji Acuity and the support is nonexistent, so we will not buy another fuji in the future. Oce makes the Fuji printer and people tend to love the Oce support - so the machines are good, just need to have the correct support for the machines which Fuji doesn't have in the Pacific Northwest in my opinion.

We had an HP (not their flatbed) but it wasn't nearly as good as we wanted and since there wasn't much local support (sold through several distributors, large and small) we had issues we couldn't resolve/get support on so we moved on and sold the HP.

EFI and Agfa are huge names in the printing industry and their entry machines are decent, but I still think you pay more for the names/support vs. with other companies.

-------------

Mutoh, Mimaki, Epson, Roland

This group is what I consider the low end, targeting small mom and pop sign shops, offering an entry level price point but a cheap printer typically. For example I've seen Roland offer printers that only print one or two boards an hour. The Epson is a nice printer, but doesn't have nematic registration pins and cuts corners that just don't make sense to any production shop. I don't have much experience with Mutoh or Mimaki but I see on a lot of threads people are having issues with their flatbed machines. All four of these machines remind me of the HP printers - they are typically sold through distributors who sell them machines and then can offer little training or support after the sale (which is different when working with a company who sells their printers and services them directly vs. relying on distributors to do the servicing). If this is all you got/can afford it will probably work with a lot of effort, but it's not the options I would look to build a strong large format printing business around, it's more for the small shop that wants to be able to offer direct printing in house at a lower cost because they don't have a ton of demand (like a shop that prints 100 boards a day or so vs. a shop that might print 4-6 boards a day).


------

What I'd recommend is looking at each of these companies' websites and then going to a site like Global Garage to see what brands are selling as used - you might be able to pick up a steal of a deal. You also have to ask yourself though why are so many of "x company" being sold as used machines vs. other companies that only have one or two machines being sold. For example Fuji and Oce have a ton of resales on Global Garage, but DigiTech doesn't even have a single machine being resold...

Next, I'd consider hybrid vs. true flatbed printers. We have both flatbed and hybrid printers and if I could only have one - I would go hybrid all day long. We use our hybrid printers to print banners, wall covering, vinyl decals, static cling, etc. which we can't do on a fixed bed - but our fixed flatbed can do great registration front to back and has a vacuum that is strong enough to print on many materials that have some warp that we can't run on the belt system.

Finally, how big and what capabilities do you want - I wouldn't buy anything smaller than a 4x8 table if it is a fixed flatbed or any hybrid smaller than 64 inches. I consider a 2 inch print thickness a minimum, and at least CMYK+W for ink sets - we only run CMYKlclm and have N channel inks in some of our printers, but we do fine art printing onto wood, metal, etc. so it's important to have large color gamut and smooth gradients with the light inks. We use white ink quite often and for some customers who spent 50K a year plus with us, it was the key to getting their business so that is also a factor. IF you are only going after the occasional yard sign job or some direct print on foam board your needs will be different. Also, LED cured bulbs are the most popular nowadays and I wouldn't consider a mercury vapor system anymore (but I still have three UV machines with MV bulbs).

Feel free to message me if you want any more feedback, I have worked with/purchased/demoed almost all the companies listed above and have contacts at many of the companies I can refer you to.

Best of luck!
I have to disagree with the CMYK or "LIGHTS" comment on the Digitech. For starters, I currently work for one of the largest Large format companies in the country after having been a small printer for 20+ years. We are putting Digitech through the paces and I have done a lot of Due Diligence. There is NO COMPARRISON between VANGUARD or other Chinese machines and a DIGITECH - NOT ONE BIT. We just ran 360 (5'x10') boards with 6pt text for a very large retail client.
The job took 10 hours to run and that was with a power outage due to a storm and some trial and error. The machine is flawless and very well designed. I would also state that the Digitech will be running jobs 7 -10 years from from now due to the build quality (Unlike Vanguard - go see what they sell for on global garage) of of the solid bed, magnet drive system, simplicity of the ink system, etc. I am not sure how Digitech got grouped with the Vanguard but I too had the same impression and I am so glad I put my ego aside and checked them out. After spending many hours talking with Troy and Patric and running this large job in their shop this week - I finally understand. If I was still a smaller print shop owner looking for my first flatbed or looking for more speed with excellent quality, I would buy the Digitech over anything out there and I was a huge fan of the SwissQ. I think the small 4'x8' is about $220K and the larger 5'10' is about $375K. Go show me another printer on the market that can run 30 boards an hour or 60 boards an hour (depending on which machine) a sellable quality and you will not find until you get in the $500K range with a nice $30K service contract, that you will need and another $10-$20K in R&M annually. Digitech does not have a service contract, there is nothing that is a better value - hands down. You will probably not find a used Digitech for years to come because they are so well designed, simple to fix. This is the biggest no brainer in the printing industry. Just throw out all the garbage that all the other big boy OEM's tell you and go see one in San Antonio or at SGIA in Vegas.

-Great Print Quality, small text, images, etc.
-Resale value will hold because of the quality of the components and design
-Built to last unlike Vanguard
-No service contract
-Great reliability - talk to their current customers!!!

Our customers care about Speed, Price and Quality - NO BETTER VALUE IN THE INDUSTRY than Digitech.
 

ABA Visibility Products

Premium Subscriber
Count us in the Digitech Fanclub. We went to their facility when the TruFire was just being introduced, saw an amazing machine running both fast and with good quality and knew this would be our next purchase for another flatbed.

We also have the HP FB700, CET Q5, and had a Vanguard Kyocera dual row machine. These machines are not on the same level as the Digitech, period, and should not be compared to it.

Patric, the owner, is a standout person and will take care of you. If the Digitech is in your price point I'd highly recommend it.
 

Signscorp

New Member
I am looking to add a used flatbed printer to my arsenal. I am looking for suggestions on a brand that is reliable and good for a first time user. I am not concerned with speed as much as I am with quality. I am open to a hybrid or true flatbed. I will be using it mostly for ACM and corrugated material. Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
Thank you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I would focus on making sure the printers can successfully print on ACM. Corrugated plastic is no problem at all on ours (HP FB700) but it just doesnt really do ACM that well.
 

MelloImagingTechnologies

Many years in the Production Business
Vanguard is a very reliable machine.
It is now run as the developer set up with national service technicians and also sold through servicing dealers through out the country.
I just listed an Oce Canon on EBay which I sold the customer 12 years ago and now replacing it with a Vanguard.
Bruce
 
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