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Looking for somebody familiar with profiling using Onyx

Rooster

New Member
I have a client I'm trying to help out with some profiling and their RIP (Onyxv10) is doing some very strange stuff during the ink limiting stage.

Half the problem is we're trying to profile a fabric using dye sublimation inks, which are a completely different animal than solvent on vinyl, or pigment on paper.

If anybody is familiar enough with the application and how it applies ink limits, please raise your hand. I have some questions I'd like to ask you.
 
Onyx 10 has the ability to define ink restrictions (primary channel ink limits) based on LAB measurements of the ramps.This functionality was introduced in v10.

You also have the ability to turn off this function by choosing the Legacy Ink Limiting check box, which leaves the ink restrictions decisions to be made by the user, as it did in prior versions, and as most RIPs do.
 

Nishan

New Member
R u printing direct to fabric? We use onyx printing on our 3.2m aquajet. Profiles was done by Marco from color concepts, I can send u his details if you still have not resolved your problems.
 

Bly

New Member
I'm no expert but do profile with Onyx. We just upgraded to v10.
The new automated ink restriction process has worked well for all of our eco solvent media, however I tried an art paper in our HP5500 and the result was unusable. It seemed to use hardly any light inks at all and printed a grainy mess.
Experts can tweak all the settings but I didn't have the time to experiment.
Or as Castek said you can revert to the manual process of prior versions.
 

eye4clr

New Member
It could be the texture/weave of the fabric not measuring well. I've done tight weave fabrics with good to acceptable results and some more open weave, t-shirt style fabrics with completely unusable results.

Any way you can get your hands on a spectro with a bigger aperture?
 

Rooster

New Member
Yeah the problem seems to be getting decent results from the spectro (DTP41UV). It warns that there's irregular spikes in the linearization, but you look at the curves and read the numbers from the patches and it all graduates the way you'd expect. Then when the linearization is finished, I printed a test file of a grayscale and there was a reversal in the 3/4 tones. From what I saw on the lin curves there definitely shouldn't be that issue.

Not having worked with dye sub inks before exacerbated the issue since I have no idea what I should be looking for in the ink limiting swatches. All the typical markers aren't there. I'll try the legacy ink limits and see if that helps the issue. There's something weird going on in the software when it creates the ink limits for sure. I'll also try and average a few readings to remove any spectro reading anomalies.

I guess the biggest issue is knowing what to look for when ink limiting the dye sub inks. Since it's a phase change process, is it even possible to over ink the fabric. I mean if the fabric isn't dripping wet and offsetting on everything it touches, then just call it good and leave it maxed?

I found Onyx's targets very confusing and I have no idea where they're located to open them up so I know what each patch is that I'm looking at. I normally use my own targets so I'm familiar with what the ink percentages are for each patch. This user friendly automation of the process is neither friendly nor usable IMO.
 

Tovis

New Member
We are thinking about getting onyx v 10, with it can you do your own profiles using the onyx software and an i1 pro or do you have to purchase really expensive software from x-rite?
 

rfulford

New Member
Are you looking at the ink limiting swatches before or after sublimation? I would look at them before.
 

Rooster

New Member
We are thinking about getting onyx v 10, with it can you do your own profiles using the onyx software and an i1 pro or do you have to purchase really expensive software from x-rite?

I'm not sure how the package from Onyx is sold. The RIP I'm working with seems to skip the create icc profile step and it's greyed out so I'm assuming it's an option they didn't pay for, but is available.

I'm setting the ink limits and then using my software to create the profile outside of onyx. As long as I can get it linearized and get a repeatable baseline, I can bring the profile back if the machine starts to wander. Shoot it will probably even get rid of the 3/4 tone inversion, but that would be such a hack I can't bring myself to do it.

Rulford, I was looking at them before and after sublimation, and there wasn't much difference (besides the brightness of color) between them. In that I can't see any indication of over inking, but as I stated I'm not sure what markers to look for with sublimation anyhow. Bleeding of the ink would seem to be the most logical marker to look for, but the media transport of the fabric on this system was so poor I can't tell where the targets are bleeding from over inking and where the fabric was buckling and just not printing correctly.
 

Bly

New Member
We are thinking about getting onyx v 10, with it can you do your own profiles using the onyx software and an i1 pro or do you have to purchase really expensive software from x-rite?

Profile creation is an extra with Postershop, standard in Productionhouse.
 

zahar23

New Member
:omg2:
I have a client I'm trying to help out with some profiling and their RIP (Onyxv10) is doing some very strange stuff during the ink limiting stage.

Half the problem is we're trying to profile a fabric using dye sublimation inks, which are a completely different animal than solvent on vinyl, or pigment on paper.

If anybody is familiar enough with the application and how it applies ink limits, please raise your hand. I have some questions I'd like to ask you.
 

zahar23

New Member
u can better use wassatch than onyx for that....
by-the -way which printer u r using and which inks... for disperse.. please specify your environment...
 

Rooster

New Member
It's a JV33 clone from Alpha. Same DX5 head, but with a slightly different chassis. Panel inputs are all identical. Onyx thinks it's a JV33-160 and uses the Mimaki driver. Inks are unknown, bulk, dye sublimation. Definitely from Asia somewhere. No idea where. It's what they're using and I'm not asking them to change.

That printer is mounted to some heater unit that the fabric runs through to take care of the sublimation. It's direct to fabric, with no transfer paper (that would be too easy!).

Since the fabric can't be backed up and it takes about 10-15' for the material to go through the heater, we've been printing the patches and then using a T-shirt press to handle the phase change. Yeah, it's not optimal. I know that, so does he.

Frankly the whole set-up is kind of butchered together, but the client is a friend and we're just trying to a get a good single profile for him that will provide a decent base to work off of. So far the linearized machine with no profile, even with the inversion in the 3/4 tones. Is 10x better than what they were doing before. Grays are neutral, the colors pop.

So far I'm thinking of just going back to the legacy ink limits and setting up a custom program to read the calibration strips into a spreadsheet and averaging enough readings to cover any spikes coming from the texture of the fabric. I can force one of my profiling packages to handle the linearization and input the averaged numbers manually if that doesn't work. I'd prefer to have Onyx handle the ink limiting and linearization though. So they can bring the machine back to a baseline should it wander. Without having to redo the profile, or bring me back in just to re-linearize.

They're not interested in using Wasatch. They've got enough tied up in Onyx. I just need to figure out this different animal and get the linearization done correctly so I can profile the machine. I'd love it if they switched, because I'd be intimately familiar with the process using wasatch.
 

Bly

New Member
If the problem is the 3/4 tone reversal try setting the BIC to 4.5 or so in advanced ink limits.
 

eye4clr

New Member
My guess is you don't have a software problem, you have a measurement problem.

You can try putting white paper behind the fabric when measuring, but fundamentally the light from the spectro is bouncing all over the place and getting lost instead of going back into the tiny aperature to be read correctly.

Given the hand you're dealt, I think your efforts at averaging are your best shot at something usable.
 

Jim Hancock

Old School Technician
Your problem is most likely light reflections off of the fabric itself. I recently tried to profile a dye-sub printer with an i1 and got a very spiky curve on the yellow in the linearization. This thread will give you some clues - http://www.signs101.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85467&highlight=canvas - and a possible solution. I just purchased a spectroscan with the polarizing filter and will see if this eliminates the issue with the dye-sub profile I'm trying to create. If it works, I'll contact you and see what we can work out, as I also have Onyx X10.
 

Rooster

New Member
I did put a piece of white card stock behind the fabric. I wish I had access to their RIP to show you guys the lin curves, because they looked fine. No really weird spikes in them, but not the smoothest either. Then I clicked the analyse button and it reported back that there were spikes.

Like I mentioned in an earlier post all the patch readings graduated correctly and there was no apparent reversals in the data, but printing out a stepped grayscale showed the 3/4 tone reversal. The lin curves looked OK. No major vertical or horizontal movements, just a little wavy on a near 45˚ angle which I've seen before and had things work great. It wasn't even really scooped out. Actually one of the better lin curves I've seen as far as how much the curves had to correct. There wasn't a single point in the curve where it was showing more than a 10-15% correction from a perfect 45˚ angle.

I've profiled tons of canvas before with the DTP41UV. Matte, gloss, matte with a liquid lam, gloss with a liquid lam and many different brands and severity of texture. I have never had a problem like this before. I'm sure a polarizing filter might help, but averaging the readings is going to have to do.

Given what I see in the data, I'm thinking that something in the advanced ink limits is causing this. I'll try the legacy version and if that doesn't work I'll average the readings and let you guys know how it worked out. Thanks a bunch for your advice and help. It's nice to have a place to bounce ideas around when you get stuck.
 
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