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Making a Lightbox for a backlite sign?

G

ggsigns

New Member
Yes Gino, that's the law in Georgia, the National Code. If you build to that standard you comply. Anyone can build to that standard or to UL48 and be in compliance because there is no requirement to be UL listed or be inspected. The electrical license info you quoted does not apply. Around here, if power is already at the sign location anyone can make the connection, no license of any kind required (other than a business license). An electrical license is only needed for things requiring an electrical permit, like running a circuit. I realize it's hard for many who grew up in highly regulated areas to grasp this but there are still areas in this country where we don't need the heavy hand of government to grant us permission to make a living and we're not killing ourselves.

But GA law doesn't apply to the poster in South Dakota, nor does PA law. As stated by an earlier poster the best advise is to check your local codes for what is permissible
 
Gino

Gino

Premium Subscriber
I imagine it all boils down to interpretation.

I've never heard of it anywhere doing it in the manner you're describing, but as long as you say that's the way it is.... then I guess that's the way it is. I've heard of people skirting around the law and doing it their way, but it doesn't necessarily make it legal or right.

If I were the OP, I'd check with your local authorities and have them put it in writing that you need no training, licenses or any other electrical background to build electrical cabinets for anywhere interior or exterior. After he/she gives you that in writing, then check with your insurance company and see if you're indeed covered to make and distribute these things without any training or licensing.
 
A

andy

New Member
Gino's post makes for interesting reading...

Basically you've got to prove that A) you know what you're doing B) that your insurance policy will cover you for electrical work C) that you've read and fully understood the fire regulations.

Sounds pretty reasonable to me.... if you needed the brakes on your car replaced who would you rather deal with? A bloke in his shed who "thinks" he can do the work.. or... a fully qualified and fully insured mechanic who "knows" he can do the work to a safe, regulated standard?!
 
G

ggsigns

New Member
Gino, I agree interpretation plays a big part in this. If laws were clear and didn't need interpretation we would have a lot fewer lawyers. I wouldn't suggest the OP write and ask for confirmation that nothing is required, no bureaucrat will do that. I would ask what is required instead and go from there.

Example from GA. I applied for a sign permit, the application needs an electrical permit number. I call the electrical inspector and ask what to do since power is already there from a previous sign. He says no permit needed, no inspection needed just write "existing circuit" on the sign permit. Everything gets approved. That's the way it plays out all over this area.
 
Marlene

Marlene

New Member
If you feel the need to to caution someone, so be it. Just tell them to check their local codes and be done with it. Codes are different everywhere you go and what might be illegal where you live may not be where I am
Click to expand...

a sign person knows the codes in their area so saying it needs to be UL listed is no big to a sign person as they would know if it applies to them or not. if they are without a clue and have no experience, it's a good way of learning to check out things like codes, zoning, copyrights and other regs. knowing these things is a big deal when it comes to being a pro as we still get calls begging for help as some one has paid $$$$ for a sign they can't turn and have to take down as it isn't up to code. I'd rather see the OP check out regs and find out what can and can't be done than to see the OP end up in trouble. no one is born doing this so it is OK to assume not everyone knows what needs to be known.
 
Tourney Services

Tourney Services

New Member
Gino said:
Hey Wes.... take a look.

Arizona

Code

No statewide code. Most municipalities and Coconimo, Maricopa, and Pima counties adopt the National Electrical Code. Residential, commercial, and industrial work must be performed in accordance with the FHA Minimum Property Standards and Manual of Acceptable Practices.
Enforcement

Codes are enforced by the by the municipality or county and enforcement of the contractors is by the State Registrar of Contractors.
Licensing

Electrical Contractor

Licenses may be issued to firms or individuals. Applicants must have had four (4) years trade experience within the last ten (10) years, not have had a license refused or revoked within one (1) year prior to the application, and must pass a written examination. Contractors are required to furnish a bond; residential contractors must either participate in a Consumer Recovery Fund or furnish an additional surety bond or cash deposit.
Journeyman

Licensed at local levels.
FeesElectrical ContractorJourneyman New Residential Contractor License$770.00*N/A Renewal$540.00/2yrN/A New Commercial Contractor License$645.00*N/A Renewal of Commercial License$490.00/2yrN/A Dual (Commercial and Residential) License$1265.00*N/A Renewal of Dual License$1030.00/2yrN/A *plus bond
Reciprocity

California, Nevada, and Utah
The Arizona Registrar of Contractors may waive trade examination requirements for contractors who want to be licensed in both states. No state licensing of journeymen and master electricians. Electricians are licensed by municipalities or counties. Under the agreement, Arizona can accept the licensing qualifications of these states. Applicants will be required to pass the Arizona Business Management examination and complete all other requirements for licensing in Arizona.
Contact


____________________________________________
:Oops:gg.... you too.
​
Georgia

Code

The Georgia State Minimum Standard Electrical Code consists of the 2005 National Electrical Code in conjunction with the 2005 Georgia Amendment. Some counties have adopted amendments to this code. Electrical installations are also subject to rules and regulations promulgated by the State Fire Marshal and the Insurance Commissioner.
Enforcement

There is no statewide electrical inspection. However, the Board is currently engaged in a program to encourage county and municipal authorities to require inspection of electrical work, where it is not currently inspected. The State Fire Marshall has broad powers to inspect buildings, though not specifically to perform electrical inspections. The Construction Industry Licensing Board, Electrical Division, has power to license or revoke, and to suspend or restore electrical contractor licenses.
Licensing

Contractor

Electrical contractors must be licensed by the Construction Industry Licensing Board, Electrical Division. An examination is required and licenses are issued to a person, not a firm. Renewal requires the contractor holding the license to complete four (4) hours of continuing education courses per year.
Journeyman Electrician

Journeymen employed by a licensed electrical contractor do not need a separate license. Low-Voltage Systems – Although a restricted low-voltage license is required for electrical contractors when doing such work exclusively from regular electrical wiring, low-voltage work may be done with an unrestricted, normal license when the low-voltage portion of the contract is incidental to the main electrical contract.
FeesLicenseExaminationRenewal Contractor$30.00$128.00$75.00/2yr Journeyman


Reciprocity

Alabama, Florida, North Carolina, and South Carolina
Contact


Click to expand...
What does Arizona code AZ have to do with Wes who lives in Arkansas AR?
 
Wes Phifer

Wes Phifer

New Member
Arkansas doesn't have that code. I would have been busted years ago. Until around 2005 there was not a city in Arkansas in which a sign had to have a UL stamp. There are a few now but not many. The town I live in has around 15,000 people and has no sign code at all. That is odd even for us here in Arkansas.

It is different everywhere. Check your codes and dive in. Don't be afraid of lighted signs they can make you some money. I am now working out of a shop at my house and have to contract installs. About 45% of my income is from lighted sign work.
 
J

John L

New Member
Regarding building your own, for your own use. Don't break any laws, but go ahead. Reverse engineer a current, known good assembly. I did, many years ago, as my first lighted sign. I was in a rented facility and didnt own a damn thing, had nothing to lose, and was too young to be worried about the place burning down and the insurance lawyers jumping all over a non-labeled sign install.

If you are ever planning to offer these to anyone, I'd advise you to not only mention this to your liability insurance carrier first and see what they say but also see your local building permit office and review their requirements as well.

Regarding areas that would allow you to install a new lighted sign without an electrical permit... It seems without an electrical review and inspection there is no one verifying some items very important to public safety.

New sign amp load versus Old sign amp load (more demand on an undersized circuit?).
Wire size (max amperage).
Wire length (voltage drop).
Over current protection (breaker size to match the load and the wire size).
Disconnect. Strain relief.
 
Westcoast Sign Guy

Westcoast Sign Guy

New Member
Skim read a few pots here.

The purpose of codes, regulations and inspections is FOR safety. Are regulations, codes taken too far at times and used as revenue farming? Yes!

But I could give a damn less if the OP and a few others here who have posted, electrocute themselves now or in the future performing work they have no REAL experience in especially being advised to do the opposite.

I care about the professional who shows up to a service call at the request of the end client who's sign is out because of a poorly constructed/wired up done by a hack who had no clue and most likely was chosen because he was the lowest bid. Is the tech going to touch live metal trying to troubleshoot? Now that that licensed tech has touched the sign, he just took over responsibility.

There are far more deaths in the electric sign industry when it comes to HO fluorescent lamp systems in regard to electrocution than anything else. I've never heard of death by neon except in the bombarding/post processing aspect.

locally it was a couple of years ago here an experienced tech was killed trouble shooting a pole sign being in a bucket. His body completed a circuit touching live metal.

NO one wants to repair someones work built from "on the job training". We can do without U.L. but we can't do without the NEC and the need for a contractors license. Frankly I'm shocked at those states and counties who don't any. It shows who is truly living in the stone age and who isn't. Does having to go through the process of earning years of "hands on experience" as a apprentice than to that of a journeymen REALLY seem so cumbersome? Think of if bridges and buildings were allowed to be built by just anyone who wanted to build one, or if they were built by someone from "on the job training"

I'm so happy to hear that electrical inspectors will tell you no permits are needed when existing electrical has already been pulled for a ready to add sign structure.

Electric Signs construction isn't rocket science, learning the real aspects of lighting are. You need fundamental knowledge about electricity, structural integrity & most importantly safety and what electricity can do to your body and others. There isn't anything you can TRULY learn in cliff notes, from a forum or from a PM.


It's obvious too many people believe what they read in Trade Magazines such as, Sign & Digital Graphics where confetti falls from the sky, balloons rise in mass over the horizon and a booming voice roars, "Don't miss out on available revenue because, YOU TOO CAN DO THIS!!!!!"







Gino's just trying to maintain integrity that there is among fellow professionals in a trade, I said "trade!"
 
signmeup

signmeup

New Member
Westcoast Sign Guy said:
Skim read a few pots here.

The purpose of codes, regulations and inspections is FOR safety. Are regulations, codes taken too far at times and used as revenue farming? Yes!

But I could give a damn less if the OP and a few others here who have posted, electrocute themselves now or in the future performing work they have no REAL experience in especially being advised to do the opposite.

I care about the professional who shows up to a service call at the request of the end client who's sign is out because of a poorly constructed/wired up done by a hack who had no clue and most likely was chosen because he was the lowest bid. Is the tech going to touch live metal trying to troubleshoot? Now that that licensed tech has touched the sign, he just took over responsibility.

There are far more deaths in the electric sign industry when it comes to HO fluorescent lamp systems in regard to electrocution than anything else. I've never heard of death by neon except in the bombarding/post processing aspect.

locally it was a couple of years ago here an experienced tech was killed trouble shooting a pole sign being in a bucket. His body completed a circuit touching live metal.

NO one wants to repair someones work built from "on the job training". We can do without U.L. but we can't do without the NEC and the need for a contractors license. Frankly I'm shocked at those states and counties who don't any. It shows who is truly living in the stone age and who isn't. Does having to go through the process of earning years of "hands on experience" as a apprentice than to that of a journeymen REALLY seem so cumbersome? Think of if bridges and buildings were allowed to be built by just anyone who wanted to build one, or if they were built by someone from "on the job training"

I'm so happy to hear that electrical inspectors will tell you no permits are needed when existing electrical has already been pulled for a ready to add sign structure.

Electric Signs construction isn't rocket science, learning the real aspects of lighting are. You need fundamental knowledge about electricity, structural integrity & most importantly safety and what electricity can do to your body and others. There isn't anything you can TRULY learn in cliff notes, from a forum or from a PM.


It's obvious too many people believe what they read in Trade Magazines such as, Sign & Digital Graphics where confetti falls from the sky, balloons rise in mass over the horizon and a booming voice roars, "Don't miss out on available revenue because, YOU TOO CAN DO THIS!!!!!"







Gino's just trying to maintain integrity that there is among fellow professionals in a trade, I said "trade!"
Click to expand...
I thought buckets were fibre glass. Was this guy grounded somehow?
 
A

andy

New Member
You cannot moan and whine about how hacks and lowballers undermining your business if in the next breath you start moaning about how electrical sign work requires you to meet various codes and regulations.

Electrical sign work is one area of the trade which is still worth something, you can still earn good money from this oart of the industry.... .compliance with codes and regulations make this possible.... if anyone could make electrical work you'd see the same stupid quality and idiotic prices which plague the vinyl and digital markets.

If you want to work in a professional industry where it's possible to earn a good living codes and regulations are the "walls" which keeps the idiots and lowballers out.
 
signage

signage

New Member
Signmeup not all bucket trucks are insulated (dielectric test required to check these yearly). Also just because a bucket it isolated doesn't mean you can not get electrocuted, come in contact with something grounded and you become the conductor from the live circuit to ground!
 
signmeup

signmeup

New Member
I get that part signage.... I figured he must have either grabbed a hot and a ground or his bucket was grounded. Poor fellow. I guess you should always cut the power at the source and assume stuff is still hot until you can verify otherwise. I always flick a wire with the back of my finger even after I have made sure the power is cut. Can't be too careful around electricity.

The system where I live is pretty good I think. The sign has to be inspected or built by a licenced shop and it has to be connected to the mains by a licenced electrician. The only glitch I have seen is the licenced shop I bought that one can from that wasn't built properly... it wouldn't have electrocuted anyone but it makes you wonder what else they might have put out.
 
A

andy

New Member
signmeup said:
I always flick a wire with the back of my finger even after I have made sure the power is cut. Can't be too careful around electricity.
Click to expand...

No, no, no...

If you are determined to "do" electrical work then at least invest in the right equipment.... a digital multi meter will tell you if power is still connected.... it'll even tell us the precise voltage and alert you to the fact that a circuit is grounded somewhere.

NEVER touch any cables until you've checked with a meter to make sure it's safe. Switches and the like AREN'T reliable... in old buildings you have no idea which switch connects to what... use a meter and you have proof positive that's it's safe to proceed.
 
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