-
I want to thank all the members that have upgraded your accounts. I truly appreciate your support of the site monetarily. Supporting the site keeps this site up and running as a lot of work daily goes on behind the scenes. Click to Support Signs101 ...
MDO vs. Flatbed
- Thread starter Gino
- Start date
Gino
SignManiac
New Member
No way to do it Gino if your printer doesn't have a heavy duty hold down bar on the leading edge side. I doubt you're going to find any wood product that will stay perfectly flat. You're better off printing on alumicore or you cold or you could print on .032 aluminum sheet and laminate to cheap plywood if you need rigidity.
You sure as hell don't want to find out what a new print head cost.
You sure as hell don't want to find out what a new print head cost.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
Yeah, I know about the cost of a head on one of this puppies and it ain't cheap. This kinda sucks because I asked point blank if this would print to it and they told me without a problem as long as the wood lays flat enough. Well, he never told me he couldn't supply flat enough wood... let alone anyone else. For that matter, just about everything 1/4", 1/2" cups to some degree one way or the other.
I WILL find a way. Keep those cards and letters a comin'.... we'll get this solved yet.
We're experimenting, but seem to be coming up empty-handed.
We've solved one-sided, but not double sided MDO panels.
I WILL find a way. Keep those cards and letters a comin'.... we'll get this solved yet.
We're experimenting, but seem to be coming up empty-handed.
We've solved one-sided, but not double sided MDO panels.
National Sign Co. - Print
Merchant Member
what machine did you purchase?
Craig Malmberg
New Member
I have no problem printing on MDO. I have gone to painted both sides. This gives you the option of which side to print on. I also started buying my MDO on pallets. This helps elimate warpped boards and figure prints. We use white gloves when handling the material. We print on a Geber ION X.
Just Another Sign Guy
New Member
well Craig consider yourself lucky...the vast majority of the shops i work with that have flatbeds struggle with MDO but they are all printing it 2 sided.
Gino since this post has been brought up from the depths did you try the solution that i suggested in our phone conversation and if so results?
Gino since this post has been brought up from the depths did you try the solution that i suggested in our phone conversation and if so results?
Kottwitz-Graphics
New Member
I don't know a lot about the construction of the flatbeds, so I have a question to ask prior to throwing my idea out. I'm assuming that it is constructed simular to a router, (which I have more experience)...
"How high will the gantry raise?" (Or is it stationary, and the bed moves under the print heads?)
My idea would to be to build a vacuum hold down. It doesn't have to be thick, just enough for air to move freely through.
"How high will the gantry raise?" (Or is it stationary, and the bed moves under the print heads?)
My idea would to be to build a vacuum hold down. It doesn't have to be thick, just enough for air to move freely through.
Signco Inc
General Manager
Make sure you cover the entire vacuum area with something smaller (in thickness ). If you leave parts of the vacuum table open it will not be as effective.
I would also store the material flat on a rack it you stock it. Me personally I switched over to maxmetal it comes in 1/8'' and 1/4''.
I would also store the material flat on a rack it you stock it. Me personally I switched over to maxmetal it comes in 1/8'' and 1/4''.
econolinesigns
New Member
Gino - Don't know if your printer is a true flatbed or a hybrid design. If it is a true flatbed, we have found that putting some banner tape down on the corners keeps the MDO flat We print 1/2" 4x4 and 4x8 this way on our Solara Ion.
cut digital
New Member
Have you tried some kind of ahesive like spray or maintape? Also lay The mdo on flat surface with others in a dry environment.
The mdo we sell lays flat and we never have had any worping.
The mdo we sell lays flat and we never have had any worping.
FYI but it may not help you immediately……..
Some of the high volume guys have actually gone back to the source (manufacturer) of the MDO and now specify the actual type of wood in the ply. Not the typical types of timbers used in your standard MDO supplied by the regular suppliers.
Some of the high volume guys have actually gone back to the source (manufacturer) of the MDO and now specify the actual type of wood in the ply. Not the typical types of timbers used in your standard MDO supplied by the regular suppliers.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
I don't think I have that kinda buying power...... :Oops:
However, in answer to your post cut digi.... we just finished building a large flat shelf..... 6-11/2' x 11' We can lay 5' x 10's and everything down to a 4' x 8 on it. It has 8 levels. I'm putting some MDO on it tomorrow. Everything else we put on Friday and this morning is starting to lay flat.... quite nicely.
Someone told me to lay the MDO boards out on the grass and between the ground temperature and the moisture from the grass, the board will flatten out 100%. I find that hard to believe, but I'll try anything. I know it has more to do with getting moisture distributed evenly throughout the board, but getting it to lay flat on the ground seems like a toughie. Sounds more like an old wives tale for carpenters.
Just Another Sign Guy
New Member
everyone that i know that prints mdo on both sides either picks through the pile for pieces within the tolerance they have identified being able to print....or they have built a sled on which they place the sheet and then using an air nail gun with small brads they pin the sheet down to the sled and then when they flip it over they do the same and fill the pin holes from the brads....not ideal but it works.
i have yet to see anyone doing high volume mdo able to do so any other way and one of them has invested tremendous money in having high powered vacuum table manufactured and retrofitted only to return to the sled technique, it really isnt that bad...
ideally if you can find material with no cup to it, great, but i havent encountered anyone with a supplier that great..doesn't mean that they dont exist i just don't know who they are nor do any of my clients.
i have yet to see anyone doing high volume mdo able to do so any other way and one of them has invested tremendous money in having high powered vacuum table manufactured and retrofitted only to return to the sled technique, it really isnt that bad...
ideally if you can find material with no cup to it, great, but i havent encountered anyone with a supplier that great..doesn't mean that they dont exist i just don't know who they are nor do any of my clients.
Typestries
New Member
This is of course not a suggestion on how to make your machine do it, but rather if you are desperate and need something run on MDO give a shout I'll knock it out for ya. We could probably arrange pioneer to get it back to you if u have them ship me the MDO.
Now, my thoughts on the issue. It's not just moisture, it's also internal tension, voids, and ply density. Higher ply level stock will cost more but be flatter. You may have to go to a place like fessendenhall to find a better quality board. The stuff from H has been kinda lame lately if thats what you are getting in.
one thought that might help the shelf idea is to make a sticked shelf that would allow air to evenly circulate. Maybe put the sticks 12" OC to provide support yet adequate air circ.
good luck, hollar if you need a hand.
and rest knowing that even if you spent 120 grand more on a true flatbed, MDO is still not perfect to print on.
Now, my thoughts on the issue. It's not just moisture, it's also internal tension, voids, and ply density. Higher ply level stock will cost more but be flatter. You may have to go to a place like fessendenhall to find a better quality board. The stuff from H has been kinda lame lately if thats what you are getting in.
one thought that might help the shelf idea is to make a sticked shelf that would allow air to evenly circulate. Maybe put the sticks 12" OC to provide support yet adequate air circ.
good luck, hollar if you need a hand.
and rest knowing that even if you spent 120 grand more on a true flatbed, MDO is still not perfect to print on.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
Thanks Rick.............
We just had 15pcs. 4'x 8' x 3/4" one sided and none of them laid flat enough to print, so we printed on our roll to roll and just 'Big Squeegeed' them down. It took all but 6 hours to print and another hour or so to apply them. all in all, it's Okay, but not what I originally intended for a flatbed.
Dan...
I was leaning towards what you were saying to a certain degree, but I'm going a little further. Maybe I'll PM ya and see if we can come up with something.
We just had 15pcs. 4'x 8' x 3/4" one sided and none of them laid flat enough to print, so we printed on our roll to roll and just 'Big Squeegeed' them down. It took all but 6 hours to print and another hour or so to apply them. all in all, it's Okay, but not what I originally intended for a flatbed.
Dan...
I was leaning towards what you were saying to a certain degree, but I'm going a little further. Maybe I'll PM ya and see if we can come up with something.
Just Another Sign Guy
New Member
the best 'sled' that i have seen that a client built is really simple approx. 1/4" X 2" don't know if it is steel or aluminum but they built a 4X 8 O.D with a "stringer" every foot and the "stringers" have pre drilled holes and these guys actually use a nail with a head and i have seen them flatten out some seriously bowed sheets of mdo (flattened out long enough to print them but when they remove the nails it obviously returns to the bowed original state")
MDO Printing
Hi Geno,
Sorry about your problems with MDO printing on the Dilli. Not surprised because MDO is only slightly better than plywood to get to lay flat.
The other problem besides the warping is that in the quest for better print quality and detail the printer manufacturers are using heads that drop smaller and smaller drops. No one wants a 30+ pl drop machine but that is exactly what is required to print uneven surfaces like MDO or even interior doors with inset panels.
Printers that use 14 pl heads like the Dilli, Agfa, Oryx and other like the Oce/Fuji using 6 pl drops will all have problems because drops that small turn into vapor if the drops travel farther than about 3 mm, 2mm with some heads. You can try to constructed a frame or sled that may flatten the MDO but it will be tough to get the entire 4x8 sheet surface to with 3 mm across the whole sheet. Even with a true flatbed and a large vacuum pump it will be tough to get it totally flat.
A printer like the Zund 215-C or 215-Plus using 40 pl drop Xaar 500 heads does fairly well on MDO. You check the MDo for the highest point and set you height 3 mm above that. 1/2" (13mm) MDO with a 1/4" (6MM) warp is about 18-19 mm at the height ofthe warp. With the head height set to 22mm the max distance you will shoot ink drops about 8-9 mm and with 32-40 pl drops. The image still looks OK particularly for a 4x8 real estate sign.
The way you print and mount on the MDO now is about as good as you are going to do on the Dilli. If you have enough MDO to print used Zund printers are pretty cheap these days. Drop me a line if any of you might be looking for one. I also have a Dilli 6 color that I am helping a customer sell for $47,000 with all new print heads (heads to be installed at install) if anyone is interested.
Best regards,
Bill Grambsch - WP Digital
201-675-3334
bgrambsch@polytypeamerica.com
Hi Geno,
Sorry about your problems with MDO printing on the Dilli. Not surprised because MDO is only slightly better than plywood to get to lay flat.
The other problem besides the warping is that in the quest for better print quality and detail the printer manufacturers are using heads that drop smaller and smaller drops. No one wants a 30+ pl drop machine but that is exactly what is required to print uneven surfaces like MDO or even interior doors with inset panels.
Printers that use 14 pl heads like the Dilli, Agfa, Oryx and other like the Oce/Fuji using 6 pl drops will all have problems because drops that small turn into vapor if the drops travel farther than about 3 mm, 2mm with some heads. You can try to constructed a frame or sled that may flatten the MDO but it will be tough to get the entire 4x8 sheet surface to with 3 mm across the whole sheet. Even with a true flatbed and a large vacuum pump it will be tough to get it totally flat.
A printer like the Zund 215-C or 215-Plus using 40 pl drop Xaar 500 heads does fairly well on MDO. You check the MDo for the highest point and set you height 3 mm above that. 1/2" (13mm) MDO with a 1/4" (6MM) warp is about 18-19 mm at the height ofthe warp. With the head height set to 22mm the max distance you will shoot ink drops about 8-9 mm and with 32-40 pl drops. The image still looks OK particularly for a 4x8 real estate sign.
The way you print and mount on the MDO now is about as good as you are going to do on the Dilli. If you have enough MDO to print used Zund printers are pretty cheap these days. Drop me a line if any of you might be looking for one. I also have a Dilli 6 color that I am helping a customer sell for $47,000 with all new print heads (heads to be installed at install) if anyone is interested.
Best regards,
Bill Grambsch - WP Digital
201-675-3334
bgrambsch@polytypeamerica.com