Need Help Media Profiles, ICCs and print quality

[Goatshaver]

I've had my S40600 running for the last few weeks now and I do love it. It's light years faster than my Roland and the colors are much more vibrant. However I'm still on a heck of a learning curve with this. Since all the virus stuff happened as I took delivery I never had a tech come up and do the install. I did it myself/remote over the phone with a tech. That was fine...I got up and running and have been trying to get things tweaked in my workflow.

I notice the lack of profiles for any recognizable vinyl media which has me using something I feel is similar. I use Briteline vinyl for most of my die cuts and using an Avery media profile. Is there any place to find more profiles other than the Epson dashboard? Any recommendations on good overall profiles to try for a standard calendared vinyl?

I ran a graphic off my SP540v and the same off my Epson and the epson was much more "fuzzy" looking. The roland image was much crisper. Now I'm guessing this one or two things that make the difference A) media profile and B) ICC output profile. To me I feel like the Epson is laying down a lot more ink just by visually looking at prints.

What suggestions can I try to limit ink usage/density for ICC profiles? I'm using Onyx Thrive 19 btw.

Would it be worth spending the money on getting an Eye1

 

[unclebun]

There are very few profiles available to download for that printer. What's available is available through Onyx's download utility. You'll probably need to get a measuring device and make your own profiles unless you can find one at the vinyl manufacturer's website. All the Briteline media profiles are on Grimco's website: https://www.grimco.com/info/SoftwareSupport

 

[Goatshaver]

There are very few profiles available to download for that printer. What's available is available through Onyx's download utility. You'll probably need to get a measuring device and make your own profiles unless you can find one at the vinyl manufacturer's website. All the Briteline media profiles are on Grimco's website: https://www.grimco.com/info/SoftwareSupport

Dang wonder why they never had me get those profiles. Thanks for that!

 

[iPrintStuff]

The ones on the onyx media and profile download manager are usually good, plus they give you a preview at the different print qualities available.

That being said, creating your own media profiles is naturally going to be a better option. The canned ones I’ve found are usually a bit more limited with the gamut and usually lay down a bit more ink than needed.

Since switching to creating our own profiles (in onyx 19) we’ve had great results. I’d assume in the long run it’ll save me a fair bit on ink too. Plus it’s greatly enhanced the gamut, noticed huge differences between the canned profiles on our Colorado to the ones we’ve made.

And made it much easier to colour match for customers - that’s a biggie. Customer comes in with a colour swatch, we scan it then run off a couple hundred of similar swatches. Takes two mins.

It’s all relatively straightforward in thrive too, basically a step by step process that is fairly hard to screw up. The only part that is really susceptible to user error is setting the ink limits. The rest is just scanning patches and doing what you’re told.

 

[greysquirrel]

epsonbeta.com\bestpractices download the onyx oml file and you will get all of "Epson's" profiles

 

[Goatshaver]

This not having profiles causes me a problem because I do print on RTape MetalFX often and with that material you don't want a ton of ink being laid down because it could cause it to curl. Does anyone with an Epson solvent have a profile for Rtape or how I could go about getting something setup without having an EyeOne.

 

[iPrintStuff]

This not having profiles causes me a problem because I do print on RTape MetalFX often and with that material you don't want a ton of ink being laid down because it could cause it to curl. Does anyone with an Epson solvent have a profile for Rtape or how I could go about getting something setup without having an EyeOne.

Depends on how much you buy, but if you’re not happy with the output and you buy a ton of the vinyl, we’ve had companies fly out their media specialists to make us profiles. That was before we were set up to do it ourselves (and helped a lot convincing us that we needed to be able to do it). We are in the UK though so even top to bottom it’s only about an 8h drive - not sure that would work as easy in the USA without not being free lol

 

[greysquirrel]

So then purchase an iOne and create your own profiles. Its not that difficult

 

[netsol]

goatshaver
think ebay, craigslist or offerup

 

[rjssigns]

So then purchase an iOne and create your own profiles. Its not that difficult

I've found the opposite to be true. It isn't a cut and dried process unless it's an Indigo. Tried creating a profile using the i1 suite and it was terrible. Thought I missed something so I tried a couple more times. Same crappy result. Since I now run Flexi I decided to download their profiling manifesto. While that produced a beautiful Gray20 the rest of the profile was horrifying. Tried that one a couple more times with less than stellar results.

Problem with the Flexi setup is there are two spots where they want you to assess by eye then enter values. Ahh..how about no. The whole premise of instrumented testing is to remove the human element.

Last ditch with Flexi was to use the densitometers in the lab to get a better read on chroma values. That got the profile a little closer but not good enough to use.

Here's what I don't understand. Using i1 products I can crank out a media profile for an HP Indigo. No muss no fuss it just flat works and the whole process takes about an hour. The worst part of the process is installing the profile at the press.

Gotta be something I'm missing. Some value that the software needs to build a solid profile. My goal is to see how close to G7 I can get.

 

[unclebun]

You use the i1 device, but Onyx's profiling module.

 

[P Wagner]

I've found the opposite to be true. It isn't a cut and dried process unless it's an Indigo. Tried creating a profile using the i1 suite and it was terrible. Thought I missed something so I tried a couple more times. Same crappy result. Since I now run Flexi I decided to download their profiling manifesto. While that produced a beautiful Gray20 the rest of the profile was horrifying. Tried that one a couple more times with less than stellar results.

Problem with the Flexi setup is there are two spots where they want you to assess by eye then enter values. Ahh..how about no. The whole premise of instrumented testing is to remove the human element.

Last ditch with Flexi was to use the densitometers in the lab to get a better read on chroma values. That got the profile a little closer but not good enough to use.

Here's what I don't understand. Using i1 products I can crank out a media profile for an HP Indigo. No muss no fuss it just flat works and the whole process takes about an hour. The worst part of the process is installing the profile at the press.

Gotta be something I'm missing. Some value that the software needs to build a solid profile. My goal is to see how close to G7 I can get.

SAI will be holding a webinar in May on the use of their color profile creation tool:
https://sainternational.clickmeeting.com/basics-of-creating-a-color-profile/register

 

[ColorCrest]

What suggestions can I try to limit ink usage/density for ICC profiles? I'm using Onyx Thrive 19 btw.

Because you don't seem to have the necessary measuring hardware and ICC profile making software, your goal is to find a supplied Epson / Onyx profile which you can use as a substitute for your desired media / ink / settings combination.

I suggest you print control files supplied by Onyx, especially the file named ONYX Quality Evaluation.pdf. You’ll need to do this ASAP and be sure to include the option of printing the edge data. Going forward, you will likely print this same file often and become very familiar with its attributes to notice any quality issues if / when they might change.

You’ll want to initially print the file using your most common print media and workflow. Being a new printer, your test print may happen to be the best print in your work area at this time. It should be flawless with outstanding resolution, color fidelity, gray balance, and Pantone matching. You will soon find a need for a standard Kodak gray scale, printer’s loupe, and the latest Pantone Bridge swatch book if you don’t already have those.

Next, print the file using any and all other settings and media that are appropriate for your shop. Even print the file using RIPs other than Onyx and other printers, too. Keep the prints indefinitely with your notes written on them because you will use them for comparisons later. The exercise should should serve as a visual gauge of what’s currently happening among the various machines, settings, and materials.

Know that it is not uncommon for your model of machine to produce a print exactly as its first evaluation print after 3 years of heavy use and without creating new ICC profiles. Keeping the machine mechanically tuned and calibrated using measuring tools and software, yes, but still using the initial ICC profiles from day-1.

This not having profiles causes me a problem because I do print on RTape MetalFX often and with that material you don't want a ton of ink being laid down because it could cause it to curl. Does anyone with an Epson solvent have a profile for Rtape or how I could go about getting something setup without having an EyeOne.

Again, the substitute method. Common spectrophotometers for printers will not accurately measure metalized media.

goatshaver
think ebay, craigslist or offerup

Buyer beware. There are many available "Eye1" devices out there. The vast majority are leftovers from defunct color laser copiers and are chipped to work only with certain devices, large format printers and their RIPS not among them.

In your case of being a large format printer, you'll likely want the latest Eye1Pro 3. Large aperture and polarized light source using the latest software.

Good luck

 

[netsol]

I've found the opposite to be true. It isn't a cut and dried process unless it's an Indigo. Tried creating a profile using the i1 suite and it was terrible. Thought I missed something so I tried a couple more times. Same crappy result. Since I now run Flexi I decided to download their profiling manifesto. While that produced a beautiful Gray20 the rest of the profile was horrifying. Tried that one a couple more times with less than stellar results.

Problem with the Flexi setup is there are two spots where they want you to assess by eye then enter values. Ahh..how about no. The whole premise of instrumented testing is to remove the human element.

Last ditch with Flexi was to use the densitometers in the lab to get a better read on chroma values. That got the profile a little closer but not good enough to use.

Here's what I don't understand. Using i1 products I can crank out a media profile for an HP Indigo. No muss no fuss it just flat works and the whole process takes about an hour. The worst part of the process is installing the profile at the press.

Gotta be something I'm missing. Some value that the software needs to build a solid profile. My goal is to see how close to G7 I can get.

rjs
we had an issue with the first one we bought on ebay. it was a uv cut model, fine for offset printing or digital photography (rgb)

the unit that is optimized for cmyk and the process is very simple
you have to set ink limits by eye, but i can't imagine any device being smart enough to do that as an automated process

we build our profiles in flexi

 

[rjssigns]

rjs
we had an issue with the first one we bought on ebay. it was a uv cut model, fine for offset printing or digital photography (rgb)

the unit that is optimized for cmyk and the process is very simple
you have to set ink limits by eye, but i can't imagine any device being smart enough to do that as an automated process

we build our profiles in flexi

I have an i1 Publish Pro2 and automated chart reader. Setting ink limits by eye is what bothers me and is most likely causing my issues with Flexi.
Of course I didn't fare any better with i1's automated process.
Probably make a chart with percentages of the primaries then use a spectro to define chroma. Can't trust my eyes.

 

[yannb]

Ask your Epson dealer for the " IDFChartPrintTool " for the S40 or get it here: IDFChartPrintTool-V1.1 Normally a service engineer who had training by Epson should have this, or could ask 2nd level support for it. It's a simple software application that generates and prints ink limit test charts to use with the Epson halftoning module (aka Precision Color). There's only one ink limit to be set (the Ink Density Factor), no linearisation curves etc. After you've defined the ink limit for a given printing mode, set this ink limit into the rip and print a CMYK profiling chart using all profiles set to none (= no color management). I use i1Profiler to generate these charts. After measuring the chart, generate the CMYK profile and import into Onyx or whatever rip you use. It's the way EMX profiles were built. The biggest advantage is that all rips that support EMX files are compatible with the same ink limit and profile if you use the Epson halftoning module.

 

[Mata]

Perfect and thank you, that's downloaded fine.

I'll install it and try to get a better profile with my Flexi rip and i1Profiler.

Have a nice holiday and thank you.