Mid Range Flatbed Options

[jasonx]

Hey Guys.

I need to start researching our next flatbed. We'd like to end up with an FB10000 one day but thats in another league for the time being.

We currently have an FB700 and its a workhorse of a machine. We can either add another FB700 or look to a mid range level printer.

Two things would sway us that way. Reduced ink consumption, variable dot and faster output at comparable quality.

Has anyone made such an upgrade or did you just add the same machine. Same machine is familiar and gives us redundancy.

Models I've started looking at are the Durst Rho P10-250, EFI VUTEk GS3250LX.

I'd like to stay with the Belt fed flatbed it gives us better throughput and no time time during printing.

 

[chafro]

Hello, I don't have any of these printers but have been doing a similar research this past few months.

I sent files to be printed in the P10, acuity and FB700. They all came good but I just want to tell you the FB is in another league talking about resolution and quality print. The durst and acuity have far better quality printing for close range viewing. I am talking serious difference, the FB doesn't come close.

between the acuity and the durst it was a close battle in this department but the durst won it to my eyes , the acuity seamed to be a little off focus compered to the durst.

Hope this helps and I really suggest you send some files to the suppliers for sample prints.

 

[ForgeInc]

We were absolutely in your shoes about 2 years ago. We started out with an FB700 and a latex 800, then found ourselves looking to step up to the next level flatbed machine. After much debate, discussions, research (much of which was done here on 101) we decided to get another FB700 for a few reasons. One, the quality on our FBs has always been outstanding. They arent speed demons, but in my experience when they are running well and profiled correctly, they can hold their own against any print out there. Another reason is we felt that we didnt know where we'd be in another 6 months or a year, so if we took a baby step up in speed / cost, would it actually be enough for the future? Finally, we really liked the idea of staying with the same interface, profiling setups, etc as what we already had and were used to. And - we've never had any issues with ink adhesion on our FB machines.

After another year or so we actually bought a third FB700.

That said, in late 2013 we pulled the trigger on an Oce 660xt to add to our lineup and man what difference. We run almost everything in production mode, rarely do we see cure banding.

Long winded answer, but I think it all depends on where you see yourself in a year or so, and how much bandwidth/patience do you have to gamble on a new machine, keep it profiled, and learn the ins and outs? For us we played it a bit safe and got some redundancy until we simply ran out of room and manpower for any more FB's, and we're really happy with our 3 FBs as well as our new Oce.

 

[jasonx]

We were absolutely in your shoes about 2 years ago. We started out with an FB700 and a latex 800, then found ourselves looking to step up to the next level flatbed machine. After much debate, discussions, research (much of which was done here on 101) we decided to get another FB700 for a few reasons. One, the quality on our FBs has always been outstanding. They arent speed demons, but in my experience when they are running well and profiled correctly, they can hold their own against any print out there. Another reason is we felt that we didnt know where we'd be in another 6 months or a year, so if we took a baby step up in speed / cost, would it actually be enough for the future? Finally, we really liked the idea of staying with the same interface, profiling setups, etc as what we already had and were used to. And - we've never had any issues with ink adhesion on our FB machines.

After another year or so we actually bought a third FB700.

That said, in late 2013 we pulled the trigger on an Oce 660xt to add to our lineup and man what difference. We run almost everything in production mode, rarely do we see cure banding.

Long winded answer, but I think it all depends on where you see yourself in a year or so, and how much bandwidth/patience do you have to gamble on a new machine, keep it profiled, and learn the ins and outs? For us we played it a bit safe and got some redundancy until we simply ran out of room and manpower for any more FB's, and we're really happy with our 3 FBs as well as our new Oce.

Hey Forge,

I'm really glad you replied. I've followed all your old threads and didn't realise you added a third FB700.

We're exactly in your shoes. With hindsight now would you have preferred to have the Oce before adding the two extra FB700's or were you happy with that path? Don't get me wrong I like my HP but we're now in a position where I need more throughput per hour. Clients want larger jobs faster and we need them out the door quicker. Adding the FB700 would double our output and give us redundancy. But it is a little slow for my liking now. Most jobs we do are either Outdoor Signage Plus or Indoor Signage Plus. More of the production machines I've seen can achieve the same or better output at a much greater throughput which is appealing to us.

Have you noticed a decrease in ink consumption with your OCE over the HP's? This can be factored into the higher costs of the production machines versus the FB700's in terms of making a return on your investment.

 

[alias1]

best flatbed in my opinion

Agfa titan 3.2mtr

widest range of substrates their inks are damn good and our machine runs 24/7 with no problems.. Also has roll to roll as add-on.

price is a bit hectic though...

 

[BigfishDM]

Have you seen the Jetrix machines?

 

[ForgeInc]

Hey Forge,

I'm really glad you replied. I've followed all your old threads and didn't realise you added a third FB700.

We're exactly in your shoes. With hindsight now would you have preferred to have the Oce before adding the two extra FB700's or were you happy with that path? Don't get me wrong I like my HP but we're now in a position where I need more throughput per hour. Clients want larger jobs faster and we need them out the door quicker. Adding the FB700 would double our output and give us redundancy. But it is a little slow for my liking now. Most jobs we do are either Outdoor Signage Plus or Indoor Signage Plus. More of the production machines I've seen can achieve the same or better output at a much greater throughput which is appealing to us.

Have you noticed a decrease in ink consumption with your OCE over the HP's? This can be factored into the higher costs of the production machines versus the FB700's in terms of making a return on your investment.

Our Oce is definitely faster. Quality level on both is comparable, but the HP has to print really slow to compare to what the Oce can do at much faster speeds.

Obviously we were happy with the redundancy of our FBs, we bought 3! Our initial thinking was we could just about buy 2 FB700s for the cost of one faster machine, and we can keep all the same parts, profiles are nearly identical, etc. We stayed that course until late last year, realizing we just simply need more speed. I think with hindsight I am still happy with that decision. We just couldn't predict the future, and buying the ssecond FB saved us money, which allowed us to buy a third one a few months later as we were sure demand warranted it.

There are no right or wrong answers, and of course everyone will you tell you to buy "X" machine. All I can say is the FB's treated us well, though we run the heck out of them and wouldn't even consider owning one without service contracts. For smaller shops they are a great option, but if you think you might continue to grow at a steady pace, you may want to consider stepping up to something faster.

I can say, I am impressed with Oce as a company. We are actually considering another press of theirs, and maybe liquidating one or 2 FBs. If you get serious, I am sure they will fly you to their factory in Vancouver BC to see their operation. It's truly impressive. Feel free to tell them we sent ya!

 

[jasonx]

Our Oce is definitely faster. Quality level on both is comparable, but the HP has to print really slow to compare to what the Oce can do at much faster speeds.

Obviously we were happy with the redundancy of our FBs, we bought 3! Our initial thinking was we could just about buy 2 FB700s for the cost of one faster machine, and we can keep all the same parts, profiles are nearly identical, etc. We stayed that course until late last year, realizing we just simply need more speed. I think with hindsight I am still happy with that decision. We just couldn't predict the future, and buying the ssecond FB saved us money, which allowed us to buy a third one a few months later as we were sure demand warranted it.

There are no right or wrong answers, and of course everyone will you tell you to buy "X" machine. All I can say is the FB's treated us well, though we run the heck out of them and wouldn't even consider owning one without service contracts. For smaller shops they are a great option, but if you think you might continue to grow at a steady pace, you may want to consider stepping up to something faster.

I can say, I am impressed with Oce as a company. We are actually considering another press of theirs, and maybe liquidating one or 2 FBs. If you get serious, I am sure they will fly you to their factory in Vancouver BC to see their operation. It's truly impressive. Feel free to tell them we sent ya!

Thanks for taking the time to reply to me again.

We currently have as options the Vutekl GS3250LX and the Durst Rho P10-250.

The Oce on paper seemed a bit slower and is a true flatbed. So you loose time loading and unloading sheets.

Do you find you loose some productivity off the quoted specs running a true flatbed versus the hybrid in the FB's?

I think we are pretty much decided on getting a bigger machine with a lot more throughput per hour.

We done jobs in the past on Express mode on the FB700 and on these other machines we could have done them faster and a much better output.

We generally run Indoor Signage Mode and Outdoor Signage mode so that is the quality we are comparing to on these other machines. If we can achieve the same ouput or better and faster speeds then we'll jump at it.

 

[jasonx]

Have you seen the Jetrix machines?

We're in Australia and they don't seem to common down here. We'd like to rely on the provider on support. We can't really afford to be down more then a few days at a time. Especially with no redundancy.

 

[chafro]

You should Add the new swissqprint Impala with 9 PL to your research. They are true flatbed also but much faster than oce if you configure with 8 heads.

I sent a file to get printed to most flatbed providers,, I just got the swissqprint samples. they took me by surprise. They blew all the other samples away including durst and oce.

In order of print quality I got: still waiting for vutek samples.

Swissqprint Impala
durst p10
oce/Fuji
fb700

 

[BigfishDM]

We're in Australia and they don't seem to common down here. We'd like to rely on the provider on support. We can't really afford to be down more then a few days at a time. Especially with no redundancy.

Yes I truly understand the importance of the service and maybe it would be worth talking about it with these guys over in your area http://www.anitech.com.au/printing-printing-equipment/printers/UV-Printers

 

[ForgeInc]

Thanks for taking the time to reply to me again.

We currently have as options the Vutekl GS3250LX and the Durst Rho P10-250.

The Oce on paper seemed a bit slower and is a true flatbed. So you loose time loading and unloading sheets.

Do you find you loose some productivity off the quoted specs running a true flatbed versus the hybrid in the FB's?

I think we are pretty much decided on getting a bigger machine with a lot more throughput per hour.

We done jobs in the past on Express mode on the FB700 and on these other machines we could have done them faster and a much better output.

We generally run Indoor Signage Mode and Outdoor Signage mode so that is the quality we are comparing to on these other machines. If we can achieve the same ouput or better and faster speeds then we'll jump at it.

We have the big bed on our oce, and we find a true flatbed is actually a lot faster in loading than our FB's for a couple reasons.

We actually timed how long it took our FB to load a sheet, find margins, let the camera do it's thing, adjust head height etc and it turned out to be fairly substantial. Our OCE does this process way faster. Couple that with the fact that if you have a larger bed, you can actually load another sheet on the opposite side of the bed while another sheet is still printing. This cuts down time substantially.

Also, if you are doing multiple boards per process (say smaller sheets that are ganged up in a jig or similar scenario) you can actually start removing printed pieces while others are still printing. Again - a huge timesaver.

Unless we step up to a big boy, 800k press or larger machine we are done with belt fed presses. The accuracy and range of substrates you can print on w/ true flatbeds are just way greater.

(our humble opinion just for what it's worth!)

 

[ForgeInc]

You should Add the new swissqprint Impala with 9 PL to your research. They are true flatbed also but much faster than oce if you configure with 8 heads.

I sent a file to get printed to most flatbed providers,, I just got the swissqprint samples. they took me by surprise. They blew all the other samples away including durst and oce.

In order of print quality I got: still waiting for vutek samples.

Swissqprint Impala
durst p10
oce/Fuji
fb700

When looking at samples quality of output can be very misleading, because any printer will look good when printing in their quality modes/speeds. You also need to know what speeds those samples were printed at, along with how flexible are their inks? What happens when various substrates are scored or routed? Do they stick to plastics, acrylics, etc? Do their inks stink? How much are their ink costs?

What one machine can do at a very slow speed, another can potentially do at faster production speeds. If you really are comparing printers you need to make sure your samples are apples to apples and done at comparable print speeds.

(all this is stating the obvious of course!)

 

[chafro]

The samples where made with my files. Sent the same files to all providers.

i asked for the samples on all speeds of each printer so I could make a speed/quality judgment. I also asked for samples in all the basic materials and at least one with white.

The order of quality on my previous post was judging all printers in their best quality mode. The difference is actually very big.

thanks for your input, Helping me a lot. I'm also between belt and bed right now. I going next week to see a P10 and a Impala working to make a decision .

 

[SignMeUpGraphics]

Jason,

If you can make a trip up to Sydney, visit these two places for demonstrations.
We went through the same thing approximately 12 months ago.

SwissQ @ Positive Camtech - Speak to Alfred.
Arizona @ Océ - Speak to Adrian.

I have contact details for both that I can send via PM.

You cannot go wrong with either printer. We opted for Océ purely on price point.

 

[jasonx]

We have the big bed on our oce, and we find a true flatbed is actually a lot faster in loading than our FB's for a couple reasons.

We actually timed how long it took our FB to load a sheet, find margins, let the camera do it's thing, adjust head height etc and it turned out to be fairly substantial. Our OCE does this process way faster. Couple that with the fact that if you have a larger bed, you can actually load another sheet on the opposite side of the bed while another sheet is still printing. This cuts down time substantially.

Also, if you are doing multiple boards per process (say smaller sheets that are ganged up in a jig or similar scenario) you can actually start removing printed pieces while others are still printing. Again - a huge timesaver.

Unless we step up to a big boy, 800k press or larger machine we are done with belt fed presses. The accuracy and range of substrates you can print on w/ true flatbeds are just way greater.

(our humble opinion just for what it's worth!)

Thanks for the feedback. Looks like we'll have to add a true flatbed option into our research.

 

[jasonx]

Jason,

If you can make a trip up to Sydney, visit these two places for demonstrations.
We went through the same thing approximately 12 months ago.

SwissQ @ Positive Camtech - Speak to Alfred.
Arizona @ Océ - Speak to Adrian.

I have contact details for both that I can send via PM.

You cannot go wrong with either printer. We opted for Océ purely on price point.

Hey SignMeUp which model did you end up with? Are you happy with your decision?

We saw both the SwissQ and Oce at the last PacPrint. We we'rent investigating another machine at that time. The Swiss Q Print had amazing quality from what we saw and they are the same guys who used to work at Zund. So the build quality if its like our Zund would be bullet proof.

 

[jasonx]

The samples where made with my files. Sent the same files to all providers.

i asked for the samples on all speeds of each printer so I could make a speed/quality judgment. I also asked for samples in all the basic materials and at least one with white.

The order of quality on my previous post was judging all printers in their best quality mode. The difference is actually very big.

thanks for your input, Helping me a lot. I'm also between belt and bed right now. I going next week to see a P10 and a Impala working to make a decision .

How were the samples on the Swiss Q at Production and Speed modes?

How do they compare to the HP?

 

[chafro]

Swissqprint production and speed mode where better than HP at fine art mode. HP pictoliter it's just to big compared to the others. Now HP looks great from a few feet but I'm looking for fine art quality. HP should not be compared to these other three printers,,, it should be in a lower category in speed, quality but also entry price.

The thing that impressed me about the SQ was the solid colors where perfect, I'm talking screen print perfect. So it has screen print solid colors but with perfect details when photographs are present. I will try to post some pictures for you guys to judge next week when I get home.

 

[jasonx]

Swissqprint production and speed mode where better than HP at fine art mode. HP pictoliter it's just to big compared to the others. Now HP looks great from a few feet but I'm looking for fine art quality. HP should not be compared to these other three printers,,, it should be in a lower category in speed, quality but also entry price.

The thing that impressed me about the SQ was the solid colors where perfect, I'm talking screen print perfect. So it has screen print solid colors but with perfect details when photographs are present. I will try to post some pictures for you guys to judge next week when I get home.

A little bit older of an article but lays out most options: http://www.digitaloutput.net/content/ContentCT.asp?P=2902