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Mimaki JF-1631 de-lamination problem with lexan.. HELP!!

Discussion in 'Flatbed Printers' started by cmpginc, Jun 22, 2009.

  1. cmpginc

    cmpginc New Member

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    Jun 22, 2009
    Hello Everyone:

    We are the proud owners of a Mimaki JF-1631 UV flat bed printer. We have had the machine for about two months and for our lives cannot get anything to withstand ANY brand or type of transfer adhesive. Meaning we back print on say HP12W Lexan apply Transfer adhesive to it and it has what, we have been told is "Mysterious Delamination". The lexan peels off the as if it were the liner of the transfer adhesive almost effortless. Leaving me with aprinted piece of transfer adhesive and a clear unmarked peice of lexan.

    We are not new to the printing industry, I personally am second generation, however this issue I have never, I mean never, seen this before.

    We primarily use 3M 467, 468 and sometimes 300LSE adhesives. We have tried other adhesives like Generla Formulations etc. None have cured this de-lamination problem.

    We have tried one lamp on low, standard and high as well as both lamps on low standard and high. We are printing uni-directional, fast print, 16 pass on RasterLinkPro with Alcan Forex Classic V3 profile.

    When the machine was installed for us Mimaki themselves said
    " Thats new...You may have to print some samples and see how they last etc. " Or my favorite was " The transfer adhesive must be having a PH reaction to our ink " then follwed up by " good luck with that."

    If anyone could shed some light on this issue anything at all it would be so helpful as right now we are dead in the water with this having exhausted evey idea we can come up with.

    It is like the ink is not adhering to the lexan although it does not scratch off with finger nails and seems to be cured.

    Does anyone reverse print on lexan and use adhesive that doesn't de-laminate? Is there a profile that works on the printer? Light setting? Density setting that anyone knows works?

    Again, any help would be greatly appreciated.
     
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  2. BigfishDM

    BigfishDM Merchant Member

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    I have heard of this with one other account a little while back, he just switched to a different print substrate and started using Lexan Overlaminate and that fixed his problem. What is the application your making? Is this for tradeshow graphics?

    Josh
     
  3. cmpginc

    cmpginc New Member

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    Jun 22, 2009
    Not for that use. We are an OEM label / decal supplier. Kinda like " Warning do not put your hand in the lawn mover blade why engine is running"

    Back printing on lexan because of the obvious uv protection of lexan. They are decals which are stuck on whatever the client wants with 3M adhesive.
     
  4. BigfishDM

    BigfishDM Merchant Member

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    I see, what if you printed on 3M160 and laminate with a 5 Mil UV polycarb. I know there are a couple super aggressive adhesive print vinyls out there and with the Polycarb as a laminate it might eliminate your issue.
     
  5. Mspec

    Mspec Member

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    Jul 7, 2008
    sounds like you may get some better performance with an UV adhesion promoting agent. SeriCol makes two different ones, I believe one is for glass and the other is for plastic subtrates. The Fuji printers uses these but I would suspect they are compatible with other brands of inks. There is also a product called "Bond-Aid" that I have seen in other shops, but I do not know where to find this in the US. What you are seeing is a surface energy problem, and the transfer tape has a higher bond to the ink than the ink has to the substrate. Adhesion promoters, or "primers" are sprayed or wiped on, and dry optically clear, leaving behind a surface that the ink can bite into. You can try this type of product, or find a different substrate to work with.
     
  6. jdigital

    jdigital Member

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    Jun 30, 2008
    We are using adhesion promoter ZE 680 from Sericol for all our acrylic. It works very well on our Inca flatbeds. They do not make as adhesion promoter for glass. There is a glass promotor made for Vutek. BondAid I and II(for glass and acrylics)is made by Triangle INks. you might want to try the Sericol product first. I think it works better than Bond aid. We also have in the past, sprayed our acrylic with Matthews Clear which helps the ink adhere better.
     
  7. cmpginc

    cmpginc New Member

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    Sounds like something that might work. Thanks. I see some issues that might arise laminating an optically clear adhesive between the vinyl and lexan though.. it would have to be perfect. No dust, bubbles or anything that would show a defect. Plus Mimaki says it's an issue with the adhesive attacking their inks and making it de-lam. We've tried many different adhesives and none are working. We'll experiment with the printing on vinyl idea.. But I still want to explore printing on the lexan and using the 3M adhesives because it has to be able to work! Hope others can chime in on this discussion because everyone else I've talked to that has a UV printer that is back printing on lexan says they are having the same problem.. would love to work together to fix this problem. Thanks.
     
  8. cmpginc

    cmpginc New Member

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    Jun 22, 2009
    you are printing on acrylic with the Sericol adhesion promoter.. have you or anyone else used it on polycarb or polystyrene? I was lead to believe it would not work and the UV ink should be able to cure directly to the lexan easily at low light level. I've tried low one lamp, standard one lamp, high one lamp and low standard and high both lamps (which is all their settings) and nothing sticks!

    any link or suggestion where to get the Sericol adhesion promoter at a good price.. maybe near me in Orlando? also anyone who knows it works for sure on lexan with 3M adhesives would be awesome.. the boss is tired of wasting money experimenting.. thanks!
     
  9. cmpginc

    cmpginc New Member

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    Jun 22, 2009
    OK.. just want to let everyone know what we've done. Hopefully it helps others out.

    We bought Sericol ZE-1000 Adhesion Promoter at a whopping $50 for a 1 liter container! We coated the lexan per the directions (not included with the order but found on the internet.. thank the gods for google and youtube!) The UV ink sticks a lot better to the lexan and we got the job done.

    We still have plans to try different profiles in the rip software, Raster Link Pro. We still have problems with cure banding at 8, 12 and even 16 pass! If anyone knows anything about the profiles and the JF-1631 together to maybe give some insight as to what works I would really appreciate it.

    What does not work is applying the sericol after printing to aid in a white flood coat of screen ink to the back. The white screen ink does not stick to the uv ink.

    Thanks to jdigital and the others that have helped out.
     
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