Mounting Adhesive

[AGinVT]

Back with a quick question. My shop has been using a 54" print mounting film for years, but we have noticed some adhesion issues (lifting) on certain plastic substrates lately. Not sure what has changed, but I'm not a big fan of redos, so I am hoping for some guidance.

The film is General Formulations 107. With most roll materials having their own adhesive, we do not use the mounting adhesive all that often, but I am hoping that someone out there has a product that is a little more reliable. The current film was purchased within the last year, so it shouldn't be a shelf-life issue.

One of my clients just brought in four large (3' x 5') photos and they want them mounted to acm for a wall display. I am hesitant to use this same film. Any suggestions for a new mounting film?

 

[signage]

are they low energy plastic?

 

[MikePro]

....substrates? what material is lifting?
designed for thin-flexible plastics & papers, essentially poster paper, and the only reason anything would lift is because the "substrate" is shrinking or the mounting film wasn't completely applied....or you're trying to use it to adhere 1/8"+ pvc, possibly to an imperfect surface.

 

[AGinVT]

....substrates? what material is lifting?
designed for thin-flexible plastics & papers, essentially poster paper, and the only reason anything would lift is because the "substrate" is shrinking or the mounting film wasn't completely applied....or you're trying to use it to adhere 1/8"+ pvc, possibly to an imperfect surface.

3M40C with 8520 on 1/2" Komatex PVC

 

[AGinVT]

The application is done with a laminator so there shouldn't be an issues on that front. I use a premium calendared vinyl with cast laminate to avoid shrinking of the graphic itself.

 

[MikePro]

calendared vinyl lifting is most likely your issue....uncertain what the mounting adhesive is for, considering 40C is controltac adhesive.
huge fan of finishing perimeters of controltac/airegress/etc. vinyls to PVC panels with a heat gun & soft squeegee to properly "wet" the adhesive/application.
....and if I'm trimming to the edge, then I use cast vinyls. or at the very least, a cast overlaminate atop a calendared vinyl.

you could always "wrap" the Komatex with an oversized print. I've done this plenty, print + 1/2" for komatex thickness + 1-2" extra to wrap around to backside and then I trim to a clean 1/2"-1" "frame" and then add a frame of VHB tape that overlaps the vinyl & PVC panel to "join" all the pieces together.
vinyl can then shrink slightly over time, and pulls itself tight against the PVC & VHB. edges will never lift.

 

[AGinVT]

calendared vinyl lifting is most likely your issue....uncertain what the mounting adhesive is for, considering 40C is controltac adhesive.
huge fan of finishing perimeters of controltac/airegress/etc. vinyls to PVC panels with a heat gun & soft squeegee to properly "wet" the adhesive/application.
....and if I'm trimming to the edge, then I use cast vinyls. or at the very least, a cast overlaminate atop a calendared vinyl.

you could always "wrap" the Komatex with an oversized print. I've done this plenty, print + 1/2" for komatex thickness + 1-2" extra to wrap around to backside and then I trim to a clean 1/2"-1" "frame" and then add a frame of VHB tape that overlaps the vinyl & PVC panel to "join" all the pieces together.
vinyl can then shrink slightly over time, and pulls itself tight against the PVC & VHB. edges will never lift.

Ha. Wow, sorry, other jobs on my mind. The material is an Epson Giclee Enhanced Matte paper.

New project is a customer's photo paper on acm.

 

[AGinVT]

I'm a big fan of wrapping most flat panels we hang, be it ACM or MDO.

We do wrap most panels. I completely misspoke when I mentioned the 3m40C. I am asking about roll on mounting adhesive nor non-adhesive papers. We roll the adhesive to the substrate and then do a kind of reverse mounting sequence through our laminator. Just not sticking down as much as I would like.

Lifting from the boards, not the paper.

 

[MikePro]

unfamiliar with the material, but is it like....paper-paper? not like synthetic or woven polyester or PVC, but if its actually paper then that may be your issue. moisture gets in between your adhesive(laminate)-paper-adhesive sandwich and causes separation & eventual curl.

if so, i have no experience with a proper fix as I only use paper for mounting patterns or blueprints, but i wonder if an edge-sealer could be a proper solution. or maybe an edge-cap?

 

[AGinVT]

Depending on how much money you get for this, 3m 467mp is amazing stuff. Holds 10lb/in^2. Easily removed after initial tac, but probably totally different beast on a 3'x5'.
The 40c really threw me!

The 40C is a bit of a compromise at the shop. When I arrived the owners were using lower grade IJ35 level and below vinyls on exterior signage. I pushed for IJ180, but ended up settling on 40C with cast laminates. We have had really good success with that combination.

 

[AGinVT]

unfamiliar with the material, but is it like....paper-paper? not like synthetic or woven polyester or PVC, but if its actually paper then that may be your issue. moisture gets in between your adhesive(laminate)-paper-adhesive sandwich and causes separation & eventual curl.

if so, i have no experience with a proper fix as I only use paper for mounting patterns or blueprints, but i wonder if an edge-sealer could be a proper solution. or maybe an edge-cap?

Maybe that is the reason. Not sure what the alternative might be for this sort of application though? Old school spray adhesive?

 

[AGinVT]

Depending on how much money you get for this, 3m 467mp is amazing stuff. Holds 10lb/in^2. Easily removed after initial tac, but probably totally different beast on a 3'x5'.
The 40c really threw me!

Yeah, sorry for throwing the 40C comment in there. My mind was on the quote I was working on. I have used the 467, it is good stuff, but I don't think it comes in rolls that wide.

 

[MikePro]

also, if you're looking to take that IJ40&castlam combo to another "economical" level, as we used to do that same pair as well on intermediate-projects, Grimco has an awesome house-brand Briteline DurationX that has replaced our IJ35/40 altogether at ~$150 less/roll.
we still rock 3M for all our cast/highperformance vinyls (aside from car wraps) but Briteline has yet to fail us on the lower-end stuff. They even have down&dirty cheaper lines of decal material that are intended for throwaways like packaging labels.

 

[AGinVT]

also, if you're looking to take that IJ40&castlam combo to another "economical" level, as we used to do that same pair as well on intermediate-projects, Grimco has an awesome house-brand Briteline DurationX that has replaced our IJ35/40 altogether at ~$150 less/roll.
we still rock 3M for all our cast/highperformance vinyls (aside from car wraps) but Briteline has yet to fail us on the lower-end stuff. They even have down&dirty cheaper lines of decal material that are intended for throwaways like packaging labels.

Good to know. My Grimco rep is always pushing the Briteline brand. He hints that one of the major brands produces it for them, kind of like the rumors about Kirkland stuff at Costco. Good to hear from someone that actually uses and likes it though.

 

[MikePro]

^pretty sure its Arlon, or whomever produces Arlon's products..... I'm only guessing, as the vinyl smells the same when printing, laminating, or peeling the liner off during application.

 

[AGinVT]

My guys didn't go for the Arlon. The light initial tack was kind of nice in our tests and then we used it on a few signs and it performed well. My senior installer and I even went down to NJ and sat in on a class/demonstration and I decided to get a few rolls. Then we used it on a 35' trailer.

First trip was wasted because it was winter and the heater in the beer distributor's bay where this trailer was parked wasn't working right. Not Arlon's fault, (although they do warn about installs in colder climates being an issue).

Second trip was better. We actually got the graphic on, but it was a struggle. That light initial tac turned into a kung foo grip around the rivets and made it very difficult to use the air channel/roller method. Closed the channels off and then was really tough to troubleshoot once painted into that corner. Ended up doing most of it the old way with squeegees only.

Maybe it was a bad roll, but in our experience it was tough.