NEED ADVICE - Frosted glass film issue - how to handle?

[FatCat]

Some quick background - apologies for the long read;

We did an install of some frosted glass film (Oracal 8510 coarse silver) on 2 glass walls for a company back around Thanksgiving. A few days after leaving, my contact called and said there were some issues with how it looked so I drove down to inspect it. While everything looks fine overall from the viewing side, on the backside - which is the VP's office, there were some minor streaks and "ghosting" around some of the letters. Most noticeable in direct sunlight coming in from a row of windows above. My first impression was that the fluid (Rapid Tac) hadn't completely dried out and would possibly need some more time to cure. So, they agreed to wait a week or two and see if it cleared up.

After not hearing anything back after 2 weeks I emailed and my contact said that the VP was out of the country for the holidays and that he would get back to me 2nd week of January. Wasn't real happy about that as the balance of the job was still due and I was hoping to get all of this settled by end of the year.

Fast forward to today and I just got an email last night that the VP wants to remove the film and do it all over.
However, I am not sure how to best handle all of this to where both sides can mutually walk away happy with the outcome...

1. I've really never noticed these kind of streaks before, and we've done lots of frosted glass film jobs in the past 5 years. My guess is that the direct sunlight is making them appear more noticeable, and the fact the back side shows into the VP's office, and he gets to stare at it all day is likely the root of the problem. *FWIW - the same film on the other conference room hasn't been complained about at all and I did notice some of the same types of streaks and ghosting here and there...

2. The streaks and "ghosting" around the letters are intermittent. I'm trying to figure out if we did something wrong during install, but it is so random that I can't attribute it to anything but bad luck or possibly issues with either the film or rapid tac..?

3. We are a shop of integrity, I always strive to do right and give our customers the best possible service and products even if it means I come out on the short end. However, my fear is that even if we tear all of this off and redo it, there is no guarantee the problem wouldn't manifest itself again...and then we're back in the same situation.

So, any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated. Did we do something wrong? Anyone had this type of issue before? Again, happy to replace it and do over, but I can't guarantee that this wouldn't happen again, and I don't want to burn a bridge with a customer... Any alternative solutions?

thanks!

 

[paul luszcz]

A window film installer that works with us recommends printing the frosted pattern on clear. I know it sounds terrible, but I've seen photot that look great. Once you nail the photographic texture to print it properly, printing on clear eliminates the variation of the positive and negative spaces, where the application fluid can pool and mark the vinyl as you've seen.

I can't really make out the streaks you mentioned, but if they are what I think, they're probably from the squeegee.

 

[graphicwarning]

First... nice job!

Curious... is the ghosting only around the cut letters/edges? Or does it appear through solid sections of vinyl?

I'm wondering, if it is only around the cut sections or letters, have they tried cleaning the glass with a cleaner that is seeping in around the cut areas and affecting the adhesive?

I've never seen this before personally...

 

[Jester1167]

Have you tried cleaning it with anything?

I had the thought that because the letters are cut out, the rapid-tac may be on the surface of the film? Before I replaced anything I would clean it with a mild cleaner like soap and water, let it dry, and then check it. If that didn't work I would repeat the process with alcohol and if that fails move on some other mild solvent/degreaser like rapid remover or prepsol. Each one of those cleaners will remove different contaminates and if they don't work then I would replace it.

I have installed a lot of etch-look too, and haven't seen anything like that either. I've only used 3M etch-look, or dusted and frosted crystal. Definitely try a different brand of vinyl if you have to redo the job.

 

[laserman70]

Appears that the pockets between font space had rapid tac trapped and created pockets.
The outer edge of the font looks as if there was more pressure applied. Thus giving a darker halo.
just my .02

 

[FatCat]

Can't say I've seen or heard of anything like that, although I haven't worked much with Oracal's window films.

Was there a specific reason you went with that film? Have you worked with Mactac's B-free films before? They offer dusted & frosted with air release which makes dry installs possible and would likely eliminate the risk of having that happen again. Not saying this is the perfect solution, but I would personally be more inclined to try another film rather than repeat the same process and hope it doesn't look the same.

Otherwise, I'm not sure what would cause that. Likely the rapid tac took longer to evaporate around the cut out areas and left a film. I wonder what they (rapid tac and/or oracal) would have to say about this....

Hope you get it sorted out. The install looks great btw from that front picture.

edited after seeing back picture: Yikes, that does look bad. I've never seen anything like that.

Pat, I would say the majority of the frosted film we've used is the Oracal brand - though we have also used 3M and others on occasion. I really like the way Oracal looks and handles for install. Again, in the past 5 years I've never seen anything like this before. I have used MacTac B-free clear on some reverse print stuff and it does install very well - I might suggest that to the customer as long as they are understanding that the 2 films will not match perfectly.

I guess not knowing "why" this happened has me bothered most...

 

[FatCat]

Have you tried cleaning it with anything?

I had the thought that because the letters are cut out, the rapid-tac may be on the surface of the film? Before I replaced anything I would clean it with a mild cleaner like soap and water, let it dry, and then check it. If that didn't work I would repeat the process with alcohol and if that fails move on some other mild solvent/degreaser like rapid remover or prepsol. Each one of those cleaners will remove different contaminates and if they don't work then I would replace it.

I have installed a lot of etch-look too, and haven't seen anything like that either. I've only used 3M etch-look, or dusted and frosted crystal. Definitely try a different brand of vinyl if you have to redo the job.

When I took the 2nd picture, the film had been up about a week. We rubbed those spots again with a Geekwraps squeegee and couldn't make any change to the appearance. We did try to wipe it down with rapid tac on the outside, only it isn't on the outside, it is definitely in between the adhesive and the glass.

*In response to the other comments, there are also areas that look like runs or drips in parts of the film, and not all of the letters show this halo...? It is baffling to me and I just want to know why it happened.

**In regards to printing etch film, I can't say I'd be keen on trying it - the main issue is that people like to touch and with a true frosted film, especially Oracal, you can feel the texture which is really appealing to most people.

 

[rjssigns]

If I had this issue I would do some testing. Crop and cut a couple panels from the job then install one wet one dry on the same window and see what happens.

Doing this will give you a better idea of what happened and formulate a repair plan.

 

[Kottwitz-Graphics]

Could it be an issue with the film?

How long have you had this roll? Are you close to ordering a new roll?

I'd want to apply it dry and compare it to what you are seeing now.

Fwiw, I apply everything on glass dry. I've never had luck applying any thing wet on glass, even with rapid tack 2, which is supposed to be for glass.

 

[FatCat]

If I had this issue I would do some testing. Crop and cut a couple panels from the job then install one wet one dry on the same window and see what happens.

Doing this will give you a better idea of what happened and formulate a repair plan.

In a perfect world, I would agree. However, I have to get this remedied quickly to make the customer happy AND to receive the balance due for the work done. In my experience putting down true glass films dry is difficult at best, especially large panels like these. The odds of getting minor air bubbles or squeegee marks in the film are much greater, and as such is why we've always done them wet.

 

[Marlene]

Have you tried cleaning it with anything?

I had the thought that because the letters are cut out, the rapid-tac may be on the surface of the film? Before I replaced anything I would clean it with a mild cleaner like soap and water, let it dry, and then check it. If that didn't work I would repeat the process with alcohol and if that fails move on some other mild solvent/degreaser like rapid remover or prepsol. Each one of those cleaners will remove different contaminates and if they don't work then I would replace it.

I have installed a lot of etch-look too, and haven't seen anything like that either. I've only used 3M etch-look, or dusted and frosted crystal. Definitely try a different brand of vinyl if you have to redo the job.

I too have only worked with 3M dusted or frosted but I'm not to sure that is a vinyl issue if it is only where the letters are cut. could it be the transfer tape lifted the edges in those areas just enough to leave a little space between the back of the vinyl and the glass so the rapid-tac could pool up there? the rapid-tac would dry out and might have left those areas looking different from the rest of the vinyl

 

[rjssigns]

In a perfect world, I would agree. However, I have to get this remedied quickly to make the customer happy AND to receive the balance due for the work done. In my experience putting down true glass films dry is difficult at best, especially large panels like these. The odds of getting minor air bubbles or squeegee marks in the film are much greater, and as such is why we've always done them wet.

Gotcha. We do very little with etch film. Our M.O. is to give all those jobs to our friend the pro tint installer. I know I'm a coward.

 

[Marie]

Could a solid piece of faux etch be applied to the other side of the glass directly behind the cut piece so that the VP would see solid instead of the reversed, cut out letters? Or would that still be translucent enough that the ghosting effect still shows?

 

[Jester1167]

Could the cleaning crew have sprayed something on the window before the rapid tac cured. Then the cleaning solution wicked under the vinyl in the areas they sprayed heavily?

I would still try cleaning the vinyl surface with something other than rapid tac just to make sure.

 

[FatCat]

The rooms were done with 2 different rolls of Oracal. However both show symptoms, although some letters do and some do not show the ghosting/halos. Again, the drips and other small anomalies are more random.

I am pretty certain the cleaning crew didn't spray anything on it as we left instructions not to touch or clean it for 1 week.

In response to Marie, if you apply the etch on the backside, it will likely cause issues with the contrast of the cut out lettering on the front and make it too light to see.


I guess the easy answer is to use the B-Free vinyl, apply it dry and be done with it. I would be willing to try the Oracal dry, but as picky as the VP appears to be the risk of having even the tiniest of bubbles, etc in the film would then require it to be removed AGAIN, and then go back with the B-Free anyway...


In the end, I would love to be down there when the sun isn't shining directly in the window above and to the left. These issues are definitely highlighted by the direct sunlight and I feel if it was just indoor light they wouldn't be as pronounced.

 

[fresh]

Can you just add a reverse cut to the inside of the office, so the "offending streak marks" are hidden? I know it will effect the opacity of the frosted vinyl, but if its in the direct sun, that might work well.

FWIW, we always install frosted glass dry.

 

[mgieske]

we installed this film and had the same situation six months ago. that halo you see is surely moisture. Our solution was heat and re-squeegee- working the moisture out towards the reverse weeded areas. this didn't work 100% while on site but we assumed the residual would come out over time. luckily our graphic was 10 feet up and the tiny issues were really not noticeable at all. luckily our client was happy with the results

 

[FS-Keith]

I too have only worked with 3M dusted or frosted but I'm not to sure that is a vinyl issue if it is only where the letters are cut. could it be the transfer tape lifted the edges in those areas just enough to leave a little space between the back of the vinyl and the glass so the rapid-tac could pool up there? the rapid-tac would dry out and might have left those areas looking different from the rest of the vinyl

this was my thought as well but have you sent these pics to the manufacturer or even made sure the vinyl is compatable with the rapid tac?

 

[Pixels Are Bad Mmmkay?]

I just applied some lettering to two mirrors with 8510 etched glass film for the first time yesterday. I hope I don't have any issues, but I applied it dry. I usually use the 8810, but this was specified by the customer and I actually like the look of it more than the 8810.

 

[jhimes]

I work with a lot of etched glass film in fact I just finished 19 windows similar in size and it is moisture from the rapid tac and it will
evaporate in time but your client may not want to wait that long. Yiu can try a heat gun but be very careful because you can actually change the look of the film in different areas with too much heat.

 

[visual800]

fist off, GREAT JOB, love the way it looks. Secondly, yes. I know what you are referring to and we have had it happen on etching. I love etching but I hate when you see the other side of it! We always went dry with it and worked it slow.

Try to see if Sparky will hold out and see how it works out or put a heat gun on it

 

[rjssigns]

For heat what about infrared room heaters? They work great on single pane. They'll give a nice even heat with no scorching.(done January installs with them) Not sure about using on I.G. panels though.