How did you clean the surface before applying and with what (sorry if it's been asked before)? I've seen similar issues when it was very cold and the cleaner (Avery Surface Cleaner) wasn't properly dried off before applying (due to the very cold weather and a too soaked rag/cloth). With frosted it seems VERY important that not the slightest residue of any cleaning agent is left behind before applying. Now, we do apply dry-aply/air release/b-free but I guess it could be the same with wet apply. Just my .02... Hope you get it solved in a nice way, the layout and install looks great from front.
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NEED ADVICE - Frosted glass film issue - how to handle?
- Thread starter FatCat
- Start date
signsvisual
New Member
The job you did is perfect. Don't go back there until he pays the balance. If he wants to do it again, tell him to pay for it. I deal with these type of things all the time. They can find anything wrong with anything. The slightest imperfection and they can be real anal about it especially office types who just sit there and have nothin better to do. When you installed , he saw everything and approved it right?> I wouldnt go back there, the graphic you did looks amazing. Tell him its not a work of art to be criticized all day long and to pay the balance. How do you know if you do it again, he won't complain about a dot in the film (which has happened to me) or anything else for that matter. So long as he was there when you installed it and signed off, you're in the clear. This is business. Don;t let this client take advantage of you. You did an excellent job, he is complaining about something that is a non issue and just buying time to not pay. Like you said you did the other room and did it the same way right? If you go back and remove it, he knows he got you wrapped on his finger. Tell him pay the balance first and if he wants to redo you will give him a discounted price. Dont do it for free. This is a business. he will understand. And he didnt even bring this up til a few days later? If its not mentioned the same day or next day, forget it, even then, he signed off on it when you left the office. You made a mistake going back to inspect it. Shouldve told him to pay the balance before you went down the 2nd time
synergy_jim
New Member
Thats one of the weirdest things I have ever seen. We quit using rapid tac years ago due to some similar issues. We started doing the old witches brew with baby shampoo, water, and alcohol because of it. If and thats a big IF we have to stick glass applications wet, we mix it extra hot with about 50% water and alcohol so it dries super fast.
Now, that being said, most applications to glass ( especially the ones where you can see front and back ) we stick dry. I have seen clear / frosted / colored vinyls do some really weird stuff when stuck wet on glass.
Now, that being said, most applications to glass ( especially the ones where you can see front and back ) we stick dry. I have seen clear / frosted / colored vinyls do some really weird stuff when stuck wet on glass.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
There's definitely some form of contamination there. The question is, will it slowly disappear over time or will it remain ??
My thought would be simple, the viewing side is from the side you read it normally. The goal was from out there, not his office. His side is going to show working hazards and other slight imperfections. Sorry, but too bad. If you don't like it, don't look at it. Kinda like the ignore button in this place. Then dazzle them with some bullsh!t and tell them this takes place on the adhesive side on any surface.
It's just something that happens. Not all the time, but is always a possibility. If this does ot go away after 4 seasons havepassed we'll do it again at a reduced price, buthonestly, the exact same thing could happen.
Now, that would work, if you hadn't already appeared defensive and undecided. Now, he knows you are probably gonna do it because of your integrity. However, in the future, right off the bat, tell them with authority, this happens from time to time and is not predictable when. Then the customer will just accept it, without any further todo.
Oh, and very nice job, even with the boss's lame input.
My thought would be simple, the viewing side is from the side you read it normally. The goal was from out there, not his office. His side is going to show working hazards and other slight imperfections. Sorry, but too bad. If you don't like it, don't look at it. Kinda like the ignore button in this place. Then dazzle them with some bullsh!t and tell them this takes place on the adhesive side on any surface.
It's just something that happens. Not all the time, but is always a possibility. If this does ot go away after 4 seasons havepassed we'll do it again at a reduced price, buthonestly, the exact same thing could happen.
Now, that would work, if you hadn't already appeared defensive and undecided. Now, he knows you are probably gonna do it because of your integrity. However, in the future, right off the bat, tell them with authority, this happens from time to time and is not predictable when. Then the customer will just accept it, without any further todo.
Oh, and very nice job, even with the boss's lame input.
FatCat
New Member
I am glad I let this thread go the last 2 days, it's comforting knowing that many of you thought the job looks good. (I'm often pretty hard on myself and what we do here to a fault.) I guess sometimes you just need to think on things and get others opinions before you say or do something you could regret.
As an update, nothing has been said or discussed to our customer. I told my contact I needed to consult with some installers and others in the industry and see what kind of solution(s) we could offer. After all, I do get that there is an issue, but as I have felt all along, it is trivial and only affecting one person. I will be calling today to discuss options.
Here are my options as I see them;
SCENARIO 1 - I figure I'll have another $100 in materials (Oracal) plus 1/2 day to remove the old vinyl and re-do with the new with me and another installer. So maybe $300 worth of trouble there to make $400 in the end. Still, there is no guarantee the same issues won't happen again and I will stress that payment will be due when we finish and as far as I am concerned the matter is closed regardless of the outcome.
SCENARIO 2 - If I can talk them into simply putting something across the back to hide the marks, then I merely have material and about 1-2 hours of labor to apply the solid sheets across the back. Will it affect the look of the lettering from the front? I really don't know... but this will likely be the least expensive and time consuming fix.
SCENARIO 3 - My only other option is to remove what is there and then purchase the B-Free vinyl ($279 short roll) and re-do with that. Again, have to remove what is there (1/2 day labor) and re-install with the new so after buying a roll of material and figuring cost of labor, driving downtown, etc there won't be much left of the $700 balance to make it worth doing. It will be "right" and likely make the customer happy, but I hate walking away from a job making nothing. Though it has happened before, and will likely happen again...
SCENARIO 4 - I walk away, tell the customer we did our best and apologize they don't feel the work was good. I've never done this before, and I hate to think about this path.... The balance of the job is a little more than $700.00, so really not chump change and I don't want to walk away leaving it out there and also burning a bridge.
...Final thoughts before I call?
As an update, nothing has been said or discussed to our customer. I told my contact I needed to consult with some installers and others in the industry and see what kind of solution(s) we could offer. After all, I do get that there is an issue, but as I have felt all along, it is trivial and only affecting one person. I will be calling today to discuss options.
Here are my options as I see them;
SCENARIO 1 - I figure I'll have another $100 in materials (Oracal) plus 1/2 day to remove the old vinyl and re-do with the new with me and another installer. So maybe $300 worth of trouble there to make $400 in the end. Still, there is no guarantee the same issues won't happen again and I will stress that payment will be due when we finish and as far as I am concerned the matter is closed regardless of the outcome.
SCENARIO 2 - If I can talk them into simply putting something across the back to hide the marks, then I merely have material and about 1-2 hours of labor to apply the solid sheets across the back. Will it affect the look of the lettering from the front? I really don't know... but this will likely be the least expensive and time consuming fix.
SCENARIO 3 - My only other option is to remove what is there and then purchase the B-Free vinyl ($279 short roll) and re-do with that. Again, have to remove what is there (1/2 day labor) and re-install with the new so after buying a roll of material and figuring cost of labor, driving downtown, etc there won't be much left of the $700 balance to make it worth doing. It will be "right" and likely make the customer happy, but I hate walking away from a job making nothing. Though it has happened before, and will likely happen again...
SCENARIO 4 - I walk away, tell the customer we did our best and apologize they don't feel the work was good. I've never done this before, and I hate to think about this path.... The balance of the job is a little more than $700.00, so really not chump change and I don't want to walk away leaving it out there and also burning a bridge.
...Final thoughts before I call?
If you go with 2, you could reverse cut and apply inside, it may not look as bad from outside. Then again, they may really like the way a solid piece makes it look. Hard to say...
My real thought is that it doesn't sound like option 4 is an option for you. It wouldn't be for me. I would spend the $700 and break even before I left someone thinking I do inferior work. Even if it doesn't lead to repeat business. It's a matter of pride. Not every job turns out exactly as I would like it to, but the customer has to be satisfied.
FatCat
New Member
My fear of doing a reverse cut application is that because this glass is 3/4" thick, I think there will be some weird reflection/diffusion issues with the light coming through. Unless you were to look at it head on, AND we managed to get it precisely aligned with the fronts, you'd likely see inconsistencies, and as picky as they have been I don't want to even chance it. If we go that route it will be a solid band of material, period.
Oh, and I hear ya about eating the cost to keep up a good reputation. I've done it before, and I will likely do it again - the crux with this situation is that I don't feel we did anything wrong, just that something didn't turn out perfect from every angle - and due to someone being particularly picky about what I feel is a non-issue since it doesn't show on the viewing side. The difficulty is conveying that to the customer in a way that doesn't make it seem like I'm calling them out on being a nitpicking a##hole.
Oh, and I hear ya about eating the cost to keep up a good reputation. I've done it before, and I will likely do it again - the crux with this situation is that I don't feel we did anything wrong, just that something didn't turn out perfect from every angle - and due to someone being particularly picky about what I feel is a non-issue since it doesn't show on the viewing side. The difficulty is conveying that to the customer in a way that doesn't make it seem like I'm calling them out on being a nitpicking a##hole.
bigben
Not a newbie
I do alot of frosted job like this and your problem is rapidtac. If you don't shake your bottle very well before using it, it could stain the vinyl on top or rear of the film. Even after that, you can still have the problem. Like other said, try to clean it with rapidtac and if it does not work, a mild solvent. But be careful, you could change the ''color'' of the material.
I've worked with all the films possible. If the designer especially don't ask or a film in the 3M fasara book, I always use mactac b-free and install it dry. I even started to use the easy dot material as frosted film. The customers like the dot pattern and since it's replaceable, it's even easier to install or correct.
reQ
New Member
Never used rapidtac in my life. Always mix my own "baby shampoo mix" same using for tinitng windows.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
Was discussing this with someone else and they said they spotted the problem right away from either side.
He tended to think the instal was done improperly. Using the wet method, you did not let the application tape remain on long enough before removing. Upon lifting the application tape, some of the etch lifted, thus you squeegeed those parts down which in turn creates an ineffective bond, causing a mottled look, due to some areas being drier than others and when met again with the squeegee and then introducing some wetness again. He believes you need to do it over. I, on the other-hand, feel it looks Okay, but the customer does have a case in a way, technically.
He tended to think the instal was done improperly. Using the wet method, you did not let the application tape remain on long enough before removing. Upon lifting the application tape, some of the etch lifted, thus you squeegeed those parts down which in turn creates an ineffective bond, causing a mottled look, due to some areas being drier than others and when met again with the squeegee and then introducing some wetness again. He believes you need to do it over. I, on the other-hand, feel it looks Okay, but the customer does have a case in a way, technically.
signsvisual
New Member
$700 balance? That job looks like $2500 just for that room. Definitely don't go back.
reQ
New Member
Who on Earth would pay 2500 for that? By looking at the screen, its roughly 3x4 ft panels or something like that.. Total of 48 to 60 sq ft. Lets say 60, that means you would charge $42.00 sq/ft?
signsvisual
New Member
Well think about it, actualy sandblasting glass goes for about $50 - $70 per sq ft, here in NY that is. And on-site sandblasting, forget about it. So at $42 per sqft, that is a great discount for the client looking for this alternative etched glass effect, mind you , pricing etch film / frosted vinyl is different than other films, and typically more. This is not just a frosted banding, this is drop out lettering, if it was just a straight banding, ok I will say $1500 - $1800 installed, but given the text, this job is easily over 2k, maybe 2500 pushing it, but if i knew client was gonna be like this, the price just went up 300%. I'd say $2200 just for that room. Look at it, that takes skill to match the panels letters like that. C'mon, You can get $1400 selling a banner, this is definitely worth money. Thats why i wouldnt go back, you already discounted the job, what more do you wanna give away to this client. Just cut your losses. When you price a job, think of how much value it is to the client, the more he would value it, the more the price, and in this case, obviously it was such a big deal for him, the price should've been much more. And when you price these jobs with your standard sq ft rates, take the entire glass even if your are only doing a portion of it and calculate that way. 3 ft x 8 ft - 24 sq ft x 4 panels = 96 sq ft x $30 sq ft = $3000. , and at $25 per sq - $2400. Still this job is over 2k.
reQ
New Member
1) When you comparing sandblasting & etched vinyl work, its like comparing oranges to apples. If you would go to buy a car and you have a choice between corvette & bugatti, both are nice cars yeah? But first will cost 1/20 of the price of second and you know that. But now that sales person who is trying to sell you the car says - Bugatti is 2 million dollars and corvette is 1.5 million. You would freak out and tell him that he is nuts and it cost a lot less than that. Then he would say - Hey, hold on for a sec, it also has 4 wheels, steering wheel etc and it looks nice, plus it will get you from point a to point b same as bugatti.
2) Ok, lets say this guy is a lawyer or something like that. You know for a fact that he is loaded with cash, Then you think - frick yeah, its a payday for me, gonna score big and give him 3-4x the price of regular price. Guess what? Sometimes it will work, but most of the times not. I had a competition, who thought that 3k dollars to install some reflective stripes on fire truck gonna be fine, just because its government money and they don't care... and yes, they did not get the job and fire department not even giving them opportunity to quote anymore.
3) Even if panels are 3x8 ft ( which i don't think is the case), i don' see that job more than 1500-1700 installed (unless FatCat had to travel and had to charge some extra travel fee)
P.S. Maybe i was stupid whole my sign making life and undercharged? I really would like to hear some1 else's opinion on that case.