gnubler
Active Member
I wouldn't. That's better left to a skilled artist and I'd send them elsewhere. Too time consuming for a one-man shop.
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Need Help Need to finish this Cedar Sign
- Thread starter WB
- Start date
I forget that along with progress and technology and being able to do things you don't know how to do, that simply being a sign shop has lost it's original meaning.MNT_Printhead
Working among the Corporate Lizard People
Sniffing paint
Gino
Premium Subscriber
There was a time that most sign shops had a few handpainters, a blockout painter, an electrician or two, a screen printer or two, commercial artists and paper or shocard artists, installers and walldogs of a sort. Things change, but for the most part, other than electricians or welders, people would learn the other areas, just by being around it. Today, ya have ADA which has only been around a short time, led which is much easier, computers, printers and all kindsa computer aided machines which allow people to do things, they literally cannot do by hand. Hand/eye coordination does not exist, either. Is this a bad thing ?? No, not really, but when I hear people wanna make a wooden sign, don't know how to finish it, I just feel a little sad.
I have electric lights at home, but I can't make electricity. I drive a vehicle that I could never build from the ground up. There are many things like this today, but something as fundamental as this thread....... and hearing people like you making excuses for it, yeah well.
I have electric lights at home, but I can't make electricity. I drive a vehicle that I could never build from the ground up. There are many things like this today, but something as fundamental as this thread....... and hearing people like you making excuses for it, yeah well.
Notarealsignguy
Arial - it's almost helvetica
I think the point was, if you are going to have the equipment and take jobs like this, you should know how to do the entire process. This is like flying a kite with no wind. A house painter that doesn't do baseboards. A tire shop that doesn't mount and balance. A lawn company that doesn't weed eat. A fab shop that can't weld. It's fine to stay in your lane or change lanes gnubler but you can't just drive down the middle of the road.
I was a finisher till about a year ago, you've got a few options, hopefully I can explain them well enough.
First of all, if you have any of the material scrap, use that as a test for anything you do. Run the colors on that scrap by the client to get approval.
Option 1: torch, I do not know enough about this to really be helpful other than: you better have a precise flame and a steady hand.
Option 2: Stain. Some woods require a pre-stain so that the color doesn't end up blotchy, do your research and figure out if this is one of them. I have a major preference of minwax stains, try out a few colors on your scrap. Practice brush work precision, like if you're only hitting the branches tips of the trees, make sure you can brush stain on a small of an area with accuracy. Make sure that in wiping the stain off it doesn't bleed to areas you do not want it. Again, practice on some scrap. Seal it (after the staining), scuff the sealer, clear coat it. I recommend Campbells Krystal conversion Varnish.
Option 3: Airbrushing. This has been mentioned a lot. Its a good method, you still need a steady hand though and I would recommend masking off areas you are not working on, aka work in sections. Again, if you have scrap, try it on that first. Seal your material first, then airbrush with a toner (clear varnish mixed with pigment, very little pigment, the mix should be almost transparent so you can layer up to the opacity you want). Mohawk sells cans of toner in a lot of different colors, it works in a pinch, I just personally think spray can nozzles are harder to control. With this method, you can fix it if you over apply by sanding off the colorant, and even if you oversand off the colorant and end up hitting the sealer, you can just reseal and try again. Sealer, scuff 400 grit or higher, toner, clear coat. Krystal is still highly recommended.
Option 4: Touch up sticks. This is a similar method to air brushing, but instead of spraying, you'll be using Mohawk touch up sticks. Seal your material, scuff, color with touch up sticks, coat in clear coat. These sticks come in many colors and work like crayons, you can rub in the colors with your fingers, the heat of your hand and friction will make the colors blend. I have never done this on a large scale but it is something I have used to correct stain colors on sanded through veneer or on wood filer that wouldn't take stain and I do not see why it would not work here.
Best of luck to you. Please try on scrap before applying to your finished sign.
First of all, if you have any of the material scrap, use that as a test for anything you do. Run the colors on that scrap by the client to get approval.
Option 1: torch, I do not know enough about this to really be helpful other than: you better have a precise flame and a steady hand.
Option 2: Stain. Some woods require a pre-stain so that the color doesn't end up blotchy, do your research and figure out if this is one of them. I have a major preference of minwax stains, try out a few colors on your scrap. Practice brush work precision, like if you're only hitting the branches tips of the trees, make sure you can brush stain on a small of an area with accuracy. Make sure that in wiping the stain off it doesn't bleed to areas you do not want it. Again, practice on some scrap. Seal it (after the staining), scuff the sealer, clear coat it. I recommend Campbells Krystal conversion Varnish.
Option 3: Airbrushing. This has been mentioned a lot. Its a good method, you still need a steady hand though and I would recommend masking off areas you are not working on, aka work in sections. Again, if you have scrap, try it on that first. Seal your material first, then airbrush with a toner (clear varnish mixed with pigment, very little pigment, the mix should be almost transparent so you can layer up to the opacity you want). Mohawk sells cans of toner in a lot of different colors, it works in a pinch, I just personally think spray can nozzles are harder to control. With this method, you can fix it if you over apply by sanding off the colorant, and even if you oversand off the colorant and end up hitting the sealer, you can just reseal and try again. Sealer, scuff 400 grit or higher, toner, clear coat. Krystal is still highly recommended.
Option 4: Touch up sticks. This is a similar method to air brushing, but instead of spraying, you'll be using Mohawk touch up sticks. Seal your material, scuff, color with touch up sticks, coat in clear coat. These sticks come in many colors and work like crayons, you can rub in the colors with your fingers, the heat of your hand and friction will make the colors blend. I have never done this on a large scale but it is something I have used to correct stain colors on sanded through veneer or on wood filer that wouldn't take stain and I do not see why it would not work here.
Best of luck to you. Please try on scrap before applying to your finished sign.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
Those ideas and many others will work on a piece that isn't full of patches/flaws. Unless he can do precise 'inlay' work, it's really gonna show up like a really bad job. He'd hafta have the exact same wood put back in, which I don't think the OP has when looking at not a large piece in that area exists. With that thing being hogged out and no grain..... his only hope is to paint it. Stain will never work anymore. Over the years we stained, rubbed oil, tung oil and used our own homemade brews of stain, but it only works when the grains and wood are somewhat matching. Those patches will never work, unless he can make them appear like blond characters in there. Then again, it depends what he used for patch.
Your answer should be:
"Hi, I've looked into this and I'm sorry but I cannot accommodate this change. I reached out to several people in hopes I could find someone to help with this but cannot. We do not have the capabilities to provide that finish in-house. The two options I can offer at this time is to proceed as originally spec'd with a painted finish. The second option would be for you to pickup the unfinished panel and you can either attempt to finish it yourself or find someone else. The price would be $xxx less than originally quoted since we are no longer providing the painted finish. Let me know how you want to proceed."
The reality is, your customer made a change request and you can't make it happen. Don't ruin all your hard work and give yourself a headache because they all of a sudden want something different. You tried to do the right thing. You can't make it happen. Let them try. In my experience, what typically happens is the customer backtracks and goes back to the original plan or they take the item back, and either never finish it OR change their plans again and do some cheap hack method. I'd almost guarantee if they take it back, it ends up clear coated and mounted as-is.
"Hi, I've looked into this and I'm sorry but I cannot accommodate this change. I reached out to several people in hopes I could find someone to help with this but cannot. We do not have the capabilities to provide that finish in-house. The two options I can offer at this time is to proceed as originally spec'd with a painted finish. The second option would be for you to pickup the unfinished panel and you can either attempt to finish it yourself or find someone else. The price would be $xxx less than originally quoted since we are no longer providing the painted finish. Let me know how you want to proceed."
The reality is, your customer made a change request and you can't make it happen. Don't ruin all your hard work and give yourself a headache because they all of a sudden want something different. You tried to do the right thing. You can't make it happen. Let them try. In my experience, what typically happens is the customer backtracks and goes back to the original plan or they take the item back, and either never finish it OR change their plans again and do some cheap hack method. I'd almost guarantee if they take it back, it ends up clear coated and mounted as-is.
I am not sure I would say it will look like a bad job. Where you are coming from is valid but wood, even a plank that's one piece, is going to have variances. (Typing doesn't convey tone, I hope this does not come off as condescending, I am replying to you in a way that hopefully also helps OP). I would hope that the client understands that the process they selected would result in different grain patterns and therefore the finish they are trying to push now will have a varied look. If the client expects the staining they want now to match everywhere on this, they are asking for a lot of touch up stick work over top of staining/ airbrushing to color match it all and that's a very expensive and time consuming task. I think it could turn out really pretty but the paint spec this started at is the simplest and best solution.
Notarealsignguy
Arial - it's almost helvetica
Unless you're selling signs at the flea market, Gino was correct about using the proper wood and matching it. Clear heart vertical grain, same as is used for cabinets AFAIK. This isn't a question of variances.
Lumber 101: Vertical Grain vs. Flat Grain | Lumberstore.ca
Welcome to the first post of the Lumber 101 series! This is the start of a small series of educational posts to share some of our knowledge about lumber. Today's topic is Vertical Grain vs. Flat Grain…
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Gino
Premium Subscriber
Okay, maybe this will jog your memory.
The two grey areas are some kinda patch job and any kinda staining or home brew, will show up totally different in those two areas. The mauve area, I don't know what is happening there, but it doesn't look good from what I see.
To create the effects your customer wants is easy. First, no torching it, unless you really are familiar and good with that technique. You can ruin it in seconds, otherwise. For the trees and other similar areas, just use a 2" or 3" nap roller. Not foam. Just roll your roller on your palette slightly. Don't saturate it. Roll ever so lightly over the desired areas. If it needs more, do it again, until you get the depth you want. I've done that many times. The other easier method would be to use a rag, like a wash cloth and dab it in whatever you're using for coloring and again, don't saturate it. Now, stipple the areas. This works better, but takes longer.
Do not seal the wood before doing this or the stain will sit on top of the sealer and not penetrate into the wood.
Again, those areas I pointed out are gonna stick out like a sore thumb.
Only thing that can save it would to be a paint job.
The two grey areas are some kinda patch job and any kinda staining or home brew, will show up totally different in those two areas. The mauve area, I don't know what is happening there, but it doesn't look good from what I see.
To create the effects your customer wants is easy. First, no torching it, unless you really are familiar and good with that technique. You can ruin it in seconds, otherwise. For the trees and other similar areas, just use a 2" or 3" nap roller. Not foam. Just roll your roller on your palette slightly. Don't saturate it. Roll ever so lightly over the desired areas. If it needs more, do it again, until you get the depth you want. I've done that many times. The other easier method would be to use a rag, like a wash cloth and dab it in whatever you're using for coloring and again, don't saturate it. Now, stipple the areas. This works better, but takes longer.
Do not seal the wood before doing this or the stain will sit on top of the sealer and not penetrate into the wood.
Again, those areas I pointed out are gonna stick out like a sore thumb.
Only thing that can save it would to be a paint job.
gnubler
Active Member
I've stained plain old pine with coffee. Several coats and it turned out really dark (which was my goal).