need to wait between printing and laminating?

[marleyjoeb]

Is is really important to wait some time between printing and laminating? and if so why? thanks in advance for advise - jOEb www.joebaker.net

 

[Flame]

Depends on the machine and material. I'm using a ValueJet and printing on Arlon and Oracal.... I never wait, just run it through when it's done printing.

 

[Bigdawg]

yes - need to gas out the ink... so it doesn't create air bubbles between the printed vinyl and the laminate... or at least that's what I've always been told. We wait til the next day to laminate.

ETA: we are using a Versacamm with eco-sol inks.

 

[marleyjoeb]

i think i will wait a few hours to be safe, i am using a verscamm 300 printing on avery materials - thanks joe baker

 

[scheid]

typically for solvent machines, you should give the inks several hours (i give 12-24) before laminating.......if laminate is applied before the inks are completely outgased, you will end up with a) poor adhesion to the vinyl b) seperating of lam to vinyl over time from natural material shrinkage.......

 

[Gino]

I don’t think you should ever laminate anything overtop of anything in much less then 12 hours unless completely unavoidable, regardless of the media, machine or ink type. Just about anything going onto some type of surface wet and not being allowed to thoroughly dry will always cause a problem. If you trap all the drying agents inside before they can completely do their job, you’re creating quite the problem project down the road. This is what eventually becomes known as outgassing.

Just because something is dry to the touch doesn’t necessarily mean it’s dry through and through. So to be on the safe side…. wait over night if you can. If you print early in the morning, maybe that same evening you could. Again, this is all based on your environment and your drying conditions.

 

[thesignexpert]

I agree with Gino & Scheid here. The major issue that you have when you laminate too fast is outgassing but not necessarily how you think its a problem. When you place the lamination film over your prints you are essentially trapping any gases that are still working their way out of the inks. The real problem here is, if you have trapped the gases, where do they go? If the gas cannot escape thru the front then they will actually force their way out the back which is now an easier path...

Here's the problem, what on the back of your film? That's right, the adhesive is on the back of the film and the gasses go right to work on it. What you end up with is a print that seems a little "gummy" and becomes harder to work with. Additionally, if you go right to installing, then that outgassing can actually transfer the print onto the install surface. Imagine your surprise when you strip of a nice, late model van wrap two years later only to see a beautiful duplicate image fused into the paint job.

So, listen to Gino and let your prints dry at least overnight but give it a full day to be sure of a good cure.

Thats my .02

Tim Evans

The Sign Expert .com
"Practical Help for Sign Professionals"

Pro Sign and Graphics
"A Pro Sign made Easy"

 

[Flame]

I still say it's a wive's tale.

 

[javila]

Here's the problem, what on the back of your film? That's right, the adhesive is on the back of the film and the gasses go right to work on it. What you end up with is a print that seems a little "gummy" and becomes harder to work with. Additionally, if you go right to installing, then that outgassing can actually transfer the print onto the install surface. Imagine your surprise when you strip of a nice, late model van wrap two years later only to see a beautiful duplicate image fused into the paint job.

Have you experienced this first hand?

That doesn't sound one bit possible.

 

[wildside]

i have seen it before, it was the wierdest thing, it was real dark prints and it did do this to a degree, but not a perfect image, it looked like the white paint was stained, it was at a shop i worked at about 5 years ago

 

[thesignexpert]

I have personally experienced the "gummy" effect first hand when we got a little too much in a hurry. We basically stopped the install and let the prints cure for an extra day before continuing.

The ink transfer is completely possible... there was an excellent article in Wraps Magazine regarding the ink transfer effect. Check out September 2007 on page 39. Also, if you check your vinyl mfg. specs you should see specific warnings regarding proper curing / drying time for prints.

Tim Evans

The Sign Expert .com
"Practical Help for Sign Professionals"

Pro Sign and Graphics
"A Pro Sign made Easy"

 

[kirkbedtelyon]

Depends on the machine and material. I'm using a ValueJet and printing on Arlon and Oracal.... I never wait, just run it through when it's done printing.

Your lucky. I also use a Valujet and print on Oracal and 3M IJ180C, I notice small bubbles in the laminate if I don't let the ink dry at least 12 hours. It's much more noticeable in heavy ink areas. Small bubbles now....what will it be in 6 months? Just not worth rushing it.

 

[Flame]

Your lucky. I also use a Valujet and print on Oracal and 3M IJ180C, I notice small bubbles in the laminate if I don't let the ink dry at least 12 hours. It's much more noticeable in heavy ink areas. Small bubbles now....what will it be in 6 months? Just not worth rushing it.

What profile are you using? I've probably gone through 30 sets of inks in my Mutohs, and have never once seen a problem like mentioned.

 

[Hwy]

OutGassing, or better known in the printing industry as "Gas Ghosting" is and can become problematic is situations of coating or laminating.
In oil or soy based inks, gas ghosting appears as a faint reverse image on sheet that is directly on top of freshly printed sheet. Commercial printers are very aware of this and set up their press conditions to avoid this.

In eco-solvent inks, gas ghosting can and does rear it's ugly head much the same way. Luckily eco solvent inks dry at a faster rate than oil or soy inks. However, laminating a printed page to quickly can fog the lamination to some extent in the future. Remember that gas is lighter than air and will always go up - not backward through the vinyl unless it was placed upside down.

Poor adhesion is rarely effected by gassing-but color, clarity and hue are.

 

[cdiesel]

I don't know about outgassing causing bubbles in the lam.. After all, lam (and vinyl, for that matter) are permeable to air. This is how small bubbles go away and how tenting can occur.
I've personally never seen bubbles in lam after a short dry time, but like sign expert and gino said, it will make the adhesive gummy. This in turn will create problems down the road.
Think about it like this: The light solvent is a carrier for the ink, even in eco-solvent inks. These solvents are what actually outgasses over time. If you don't let it escape naturally and trap it in, it will attack the adhesive on the lam and the adhesive on the base media.
Solvents are used as ADHESIVE REMOVERS! You wouldn't slather a bunch of remover all over your print before you lam, or on your vehicle before you wrap. So, why wouldn't you wait for the print to dry a little before lamming. I understand there are circumstances where you can't, but if you can wait I would. Many people (including me) have lammed right after printing with no adverse effects. That said, we always TRY to wait overnight before laminating.

 

[MrSigns]

I just completed wrapping class from Oracal. The Sign Expert has it completely correct. The Oracal Techs swear they have seen many application failures do to outgassing threw the vinyl. The gas reacts with the adhesive. Can destroy the adhesive. Yes ghosting can happen. This was backup by the instructor (a sign shop owner) not associated with Oracal.

Wait.....pateintally before lam

 

[GK]

There have been hundreds of weather tests preformed by Avery/3M/Oracal to see what causes material failures and it has been shown that without proper outgassing, you could be subjected to failures. This doesn't mean you will, but is waiting that extra 12-24 hours going to kill you? (aside from rush jobs). I would rather wait the time then have a 53' trailer come back to bite me in the ass two years down the road because of a preventable problem caused by impatience...

 

[javila]

I just completed wrapping class from Oracal. The Sign Expert has it completely correct. The Oracal Techs swear they have seen many application failures do to outgassing threw the vinyl. The gas reacts with the adhesive. Can destroy the adhesive. Yes ghosting can happen. This was backup by the instructor (a sign shop owner) not associated with Oracal.

Wait.....pateintally before lam

I'll believe it's true for full solvent printers, but with eco printers that have a hard time adhering to vinyl as it is? Eco inks aren't going to eat through a layer of vinyl and adhesive, and sink their teeth into automotive clear coats.

 

[Sign Scott]

Havent Seen Alot

Is is really important to wait some time between printing and laminating? and if so why? thanks in advance for advise - jOEb www.joebaker.net

I havent seen it mess up anything laminating right away not too say it doesnt. I wait on vehicle wraps to laminate overnight but on small decals i dont see the point.
In this industry time is money and its not a shortcut on quality to laminate decals right away but i would wait on wraps just my opinion.

 

[rushworks graphics]

we wait at least 6 hrs for out gassing. you need to let the ink dry before laminating or you can cause bubbles and even have the edges lift if the inks haven't out gassed enough. we usually try and leave over night but if not we wait approx 6 hours and have never had any problems. leaving your dryers on too will help the inks dry faster if you can.