New equipment purchase for a new print shop

[bulldozer]

i hate our latex 360. most inefficient machine i have worked with outside of the mimaki cjv30-160. (even though our apex printers are starting to earn that title as well)

 

[bilge]

The Okidata ColorPainters are good solvent printers (manufactured by Seiko). However, being solvent machines, they too contain every one of the same components that you are so tired of, including the 'ridiculously expensive printheads'.

If you are looking for an outdoor-durable printer that can print on virtually all of the same medias that solvent ink does (as well as many others that solvent ink cannot) but lacks all of the above items (dampers, captops, cleaning swabs, cleaning fluid, and ridiculously expensive printheads), there is only one viable option on the market today: HP Latex printers.

They print on the same medias that eco-solvent devices do, including virtually all self-adhesive vinyls and banner vinyls. And as you mention, they also print on a huge range of wallcoverings medias, plus polyester fabrics, cotton textiles, coated and uncoated papers, polyethylene and polypropylene, polyester films, and so on.

But the best part of Latex is that you will never again have to swab and sweat, wash and wait, and purge and pray that you can recover enough nozzles to deliver a salable print. The worst-case scenario with HP Latex is ~10 minutes to swap an inexpensive printhead (they are a user-replaced consumable), and you're good to go.

Happy printing!

Paul

Yes sir, I have been using HPz6100 for 9 years. Had 2 DJ5100s and just last year upgraded to HP DJ D5800 the fastest dye printer. It prints about 200-300 sqf/h. For 8 hrs full three 50"x164" rolls can be printed. Within these years I've never had any single technician visit for any of this 4 units.
But I can't work on Mimakis or Rolands. Maybe I'm not smart enough. If so HP printers are idiot proof. Printer diagnoses itself, little bit research on the web, read service manual, parts ordered, change myself that's all. If I'm in the USA or other
developed countries I might go for Latex. Roland parts are very difficult to find, chinese guys deliver fake items and other countries
distributors simply don't sell. I have contacted to Russia, Singapore even Japan. All of them say I can get only where I bought.

We're dependant to chinese supply only, there are very limited choice of substrates to meet Latex requirement. Also no any distributors of these major brands here, we need to go China or Korea (not north of course).
Oki (Seiko) colorpainter is the last one to check piezoelectric printheaded printer. That's why I remind to the "comrade" one thing left. Because chinese printers with Seiko or Konica printheads last far longer than Japanese printers with Epson printhead.
Of course print quality is not comparable, but well enough for banners. I was printing only car wrap (SAV) for delivery trucks on my Roland Versa art RA 640 (exactly same as RE) and all banners are subbed. For banners I can't compete the companies having chinese 126" printers. 20 cents/sqf.

PS. Last year I've been to Houston, Texas for a week, our prints almost same quality as there , but design in the states is top.

 

[father]

That is their marketing groups at work in each case. They are going to each spin their version of reality to their product's advantage.

That does not mean that everything is subjective. Everyone has their experience and opinions, and I am certainly no exception. And since you asked...

You are no longer a brand new user, and you have extensive experience with ownership of a solvent printer. What no one can dispute is that there are a lot of resources (in both time and money) that will be put into the maintenance of any solvent printer over it's lifespan of 5+ years. You learned that lesson (the hard way) with your Mutoh. The reality is that all solvent printers, across all models, are a lot more similar than different from each other in terms of maintenance patterns. Cleaning solution, swabs, wipers, captops, maintenance stations, pumps, dampers, and sometimes printheads, etc are all replaced by the user over time.

The HP Latex user experience (from a maintenance perspective) is the direct opposite. There is literally no scheduled maintenance with the HP Latex machines. The printer is much more self-aware, and thus self-maintaining. On those occasions where it needs something from the user, it will alert the operator via the printer's control panel. And those occasions are typically a handful of times in a year, depending on print volume. The HP Latex machines can sit for an extended period (in sleep mode for weeks) without manual intervention or cleaning, and produce a sell-able print on demand. When a printhead fails, and they will, it is a 10 minute procedure to get back into production. The only other consumables are ink carts and a maintenance cartridge. All are simple and quick (< 10 minutes) to replace, and the printer alerts the user when to do so.

The other key area where the HP Latex (specifically the 360 and 370) is different from any solvent printer is that the Latex machines are able to generate a complete media profile on-board the printer, without the need for any external measurement devices. This has been done to make the profiling process much easier and faster for the average user of the printer. There is no question that HP has succeeded at achieving that goal. On opaque medias (vinyls, banner, film, paper etc), a complete media profile can be completed in well less than one hour of machine time (and with only perhaps 15 minutes of user time). Color management consultants can and will argue and debate about the quality of the resulting media profile, and that is a valid discussion, but no one (with any credibility) would argue that the resulting custom profile is inferior to the use of a canned (pre-built) media profile. And the reality is that most users are using canned profiles.

These are not subjective opinions. Do your own research, there are a lot of resources out there. And don't forget the important role that the reseller plays in this. They are the first line of support with setup and training for any machine. Good luck and happy printing.

Castek, how often do the heads need to be replaced on the HP machines and what's the cost?

 

[P Wagner]

Castek, how often do the heads need to be replaced on the HP machines and what's the cost?

HP Latex 300 series printheads tend to run around $125 in the US market, but there is some variability as they are sold through resellers.

HP Latex 300 series printheads are warranted for 1 liter (1000 ml) of ink passing through each head, and that warranty is separate from the printer's warranty. Most Latex users' printheads generally last an average of between 3-6 liters of ink per head, but I have some customers who average about 10 liters per head. Obviously, there is a wide range of user experiences when it comes to printhead life, and it is impossible to predict exactly how long any user's printheads will last on average.

I can say with certainty that increased frequency of events like head strikes, and dry fires (air in the ink lines) will definitely shorten the longevity of the thermal heads used in HP Latex printers (as well as piezo heads).

Here is a link to a Youtube video on the architecture of HP Thermal Inkjet printheads, such as those used in HP Latex and other HP printers:

[video=youtube;5iiJMv-jh7U]https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=306&amp;v=5iiJMv-jh7U[/video]

Paul

 

[rjssigns]

Here is what I know about the latex/eco-solent debate.
Experience: I have Roland in my shop and run a latex at school along with an Epson aqueous(that thing rocks), Roland eco-sol, and an Indigo.

I do all my own maintenance on my Roland. Why? Because I can, and everybody and their brother make parts for solvent printers and many bits are universal. Signs 101 is also a super resource for repair tips and where to get parts.

I doubt HP will ever be that way.
HP will most likely make it necessary to have a tech to do anything other than head or maintenance station replacement.
It has to be a cash cow for them. I know about this end of things from my previous job.

I will concede no matter the brand a good tech is going to cost. To get a Roland rep to my door is around 400 bucks.

Convenience of switching material/using scraps. Roland hands down.

But wait you can leave a latex and go on holiday and it will print great when you get back. Ahh, not so fast.

Leaving a Roland idle has no ill effects as long as it stays connected to power. The one in the lab sits during semester breaks for weeks with no ill effects. It also has not had a PM cycle done in over a year to boot.(was shocked to hear that, but it is what it is)

HP wants you to believe that running a swab around things a couple times a week is an absolute horror. Oh the humanity!:Big Laugh

And as far as the latex being "more" green. Not true. Roland's inks are also Green Guard certified.


Biggest advantage to the latex is instant drying. Other than that I don't see it. Build quality of the HP is not where I'd like to see it either. I spent years building precision plate making equipment and Roland is a more industrial build.

I understand there are those that will argue a printers price should be amortized within the warranty span. I will argue I don't want to have the hassle of having to upgrade every 2 or 3 years.
Upgrade is another term thrown about. Most printers when profiled will absolutely kill the PMS chart. The only upgrade would be in speed. Other than that all you are upgrading is the dealers wallet.

If it was possible to get outdoor durable prints/wraps/decals from aqueous I would buy an Epson in a heartbeat.

 

[bilge]

I do all my own maintenance on my Roland. Why? Because I can, and everybody and their brother make parts for solvent printers and many bits are universal. Signs 101 is also a super resource for repair tips and where to get parts.

What Roland model do you have? Where can I get RE640 crop sensor board? Google could not find it.

 

[rjssigns]

I do all my own maintenance on my Roland. Why? Because I can, and everybody and their brother make parts for solvent printers and many bits are universal. Signs 101 is also a super resource for repair tips and where to get parts.

What Roland model do you have? Where can I get RE640 crop sensor board? Google could not find it.

I have an older SP series. Not sure where you can get the crop sensor board. You may want to contact Vander J on the forum. He's a sharp guy and may be able to help. Could also try direct contact with one of the parts suppliers.

 

[bilge]

I have an older SP series. Not sure where you can get the crop sensor board. You may want to contact Vander J on the forum. He's a sharp guy and may be able to help. Could also try direct contact with one of the parts suppliers.

Thanks for your guidance.
I guessed that you have older Roland with DX4 printhead. I had Mimaki JV 3-160 4 DX4 printheads and JV4 -160 6 DX4 printheads. This printhead is about 500 USD that time and one of them goes wrong exchange to others like C,M to Y,K less noticeable colors. It saved most cases. Then I become fan of Mimaki and upgraded to JV 5-160 4 DX5 printhead after that nightmare begins. I almost sunk and sold less than half price. I blame Mimaki and after few years I bought Roland RA 640 single DX7 printhead. It worked like dream in the beginning then I bought second RA 640. During that time cap tops, dampers, pumps being replaced including 2 printhead to one unit and 3 printheads to another. One printhead costs 2500 USD in Roland’s official distributor in China. I checked other countries the printhead price wary, but they don’t sell because I did not bought the printer from them. After 3 years it needs to be replaced carriage motor, carriage belt, tubes, rail bearings. All these be done by only experienced tech including adjustments like belt tension adjustment, belt position adjustment, print position adjustment, flushing position adjustment so on. It costs a lot of money. In HP case, all adjustments done by printer itself, no charge, free.
When I started 15 years ago, I had Epilog laser with 18x24 table 25W and Geo Knight heat press still working maybe it will work after my death. I need that kind of equipment. My Z6100 is over 9 years old and printed almost 550K sqf. I don’t sell it even half the price now. In my experience, technically any HP printer is far more advanced than Roland or Mimaki. Also good proof about it, a chinese garage companies can easily copy Roland or Mimaki, not HP. Now I no more multichannel Epson printhead printer would buy. By the way I had Epson Stylus Pro 9900 11 color single TFP printhead (the newest 10 channel gold plated) for a year and had experience. There is in signs101 almost in any page saying “help this or that color is disappeared”. We, the users don’t want this, right?
Now time has changed, Mimaki , Roland and Epson are no more like 10 years ago when all their printers made in Japan.
But I won’t be die hard fan of HP (because I did once in Mimaki) and cautious about latex. It seems Oki (Seiko) Colorpainter W64s interesting, but could not find handful information, user’s experience nothing but brochure. Either no one buys or everybody is happy and decided to keep quiet.
People may wonder why I’m writing these silly things, but I felt I should share my experience to whom it may needed. Because a lot of colleagues around the world visit this site whatever their English proficiency is. They might be having no time, not enough money to travel or simply not able to go abroad. Look at the view number, almost hit to 1000. Unfortunately some people mislead users in order to sell their equipment. In the United States whole different story about tech or customer service, I’m talking about trying to survive without it. Please don’t judge me, I don’t have lawyer.

 

[ams]

Hello again guys. Well most everyone has read my other posts about the issues that we had before with the used equipment we purchased on the mutoh 1324. Well we have all of our equipment sold. Printer, laminator, plotter and everything. With that being said we are trying to figure out what to buy new and hopefully able to find some sort of package deal if we can. If not that is fine as well.

Still wanting to go back with a 54 printer as we have a massive amount of media for a 54.
Will still being doing vehicle wraps along with any other type of sign we can print and make.

Should we stay with solvent ink or go with latex? I have been told roland brand is what i need to go with but looking for overall information on printers and such. Laminators and any info on plotters. The Q54 we have now has done us great and is not a bad plotter for the price.

So any help would be great-full!!!!!!

Seriously get a Roland Eco-Solvent that is a print/cut. You won't be sorry.
There is good and bad things with Latex, I still don't trust it yet.

 

[dypinc]

Speaking of printheads.

For a lot of years I ran printers with Epson style heads Epson, Mutoh, etc. All the constants nozzle clogs were one big PITA. About 10 years ago I replaced a aqueous inkjet with a Canon. After printing with the Canon for a short I while got to thinking what in the hell was I doing use Epson style head printers. After that experience I swore I would never buy a printer with Epson style heads again.

So what about replacing solvent, eco-solvent printers. HP Latex seemed to be the only option so I went with a L25500. While not quite as nozzle clog free as a Canon it was a whole lot better to deal with the Epson, Mutoh printers. The HP Latex at $125.00 a head was a breeze to to deal with image quality wise caused by printheads. The biggest problem with the HP Latex printers are they are just not made to last long under heavy use. When it came time to repair/replace parts in the L25500 I made the decision to not put anymore money into it.

I bought the L360 thinking HP should really have there act together on with L3xx series. On one hand something are a lot nicer. Build quality is no better, just as mickey-moused as before. Don't know why they only chose 1 lc/mc printhead as I have found that problematic with more color shifting I think from more effect from nozzle clogs in the lc/mc because of less redundancy from fewer nozzles. The attempt to idiot proof color management is another big short coming of the L3xx printers. No way adjust the lc/mc curves or adjust ink like can be done on a halftone printer controlled by a RIP. And now they release firmware that invalidates all profiles made before the last firmware, and even worse running onboard calibration won't even get it back. Luckily I have had years of color management experience and can deal with this. At this point after this last experience I consider the CM on these printer a huge waste. Glad I have all the tools to take CM totally off board of these printers, even if still limited by the lack of adjusting light ink curves and forced to use the set ink limits. Just wish there was a more industrial halftone latex out there.

 

[altereddezignz]

We have not yet made a purchase as we are still thinking of going with the Roland vs640i or a mutoh. The reason for the mutoh as it would all come from one supplier that we deal with on all of our materials. I do however still have a strong belief of the Roland's vs bc of listening to people talk and the colors just seem brighter and more vibrant than the mutoh a do.

This may just be me fooling myself tho lol.

Pricing is not far off. What setup would you run. Cmyk cmyk or cmyklmlclk?


we do not do many skin tone prints.

 

[0igo]

hey where did you get you sell your at? did Signwarehouse take it back?

 

[altereddezignz]

Huh?

 

[0igo]

whatever you get bro you are going to make money. i remember when i started not too long ago, i was on this site asking the same question. got the mutoh because signwarehouse was the only place that financed me. not going to lie i had no clue what i was getting myself into. few months later business has been doing good. i wish i would have gotten a roland, i wish that to this day, but im not mad i got the mutoh 1624, its great, ink smells horrible, but it prints nice. in the end though i just know that if you can afford a roland go for it.

 

[player]

^ Why do you wish for Roland?

Your new printer should do everything the Roland does...

What rip do you have?

 

[altereddezignz]

^ Why do you wish for Roland?

Your new printer should do everything the Roland does...

What rip do you have?

Not that i wish for a roland. More and more people that i talk to all use roland and seem to get better color output from them vs my mutoh that we currently have. We use flexi for our rip. We get ok bright colors and a good 100% yellow but greens, oranges are dull for the most part. We currently have a mutoh 1324 printer but we do not yet have a new printer.

 

[player]

Probably RIP related. Flexi might not be the best out there if you are not calibrating with an X-Rite i1 type device.