New F1612, annoying issue with GoProduce Barcode.

[CreativeCreative]

We got our F1612 installed recently, and for the most part everything is going pretty good.

I purchased this locally through Grimco. I had got quotes from other distributors as well.

When we were configuring it, we ended up with the Barcode option for some reason. It sounded like a good idea for production at the time.

During this whole process, not Summa who I spoke with directly a few times, or any of the other distributors mentioned how this worked, asked what RIP we had, etc.
Of course, after the machine is installed we find out we can't use it with Rasterlink (I know, but it's just what we use).

My question here is one of ethics and customer service.

I explained this nicely to Summa and requested a refund for the Pro Pack since it's not compatible with our setup.

This has spiraled into a long email chain of BS. They just don't want to, and since it's a "digital asset" they can't take it back.
The guy who installed the machine himself told me to "call Mimaki" during installation to see if worked. Bit of a red flag there...

It's $1400. It's not only the money, but the principle as well.

I already purchased extra tools from Summa....this seems like a greedy way to ruin a relationship.

Wondering if any of you guys have been through something similar.

 

[garyroy]

$1400 is not a small amount of money, let's get that straight.
It's possible they bundled it in as a matter of course, in other words they sneak it in.
Over a period of a 5 year lease, it probably adds $25/month to the lease.
I'd just drop the issue, sell more work and then maybe seek out software that can use it.
All the big flatbed cutters use barcode technology. If it was useless, ZUND would not be putting it on their machines.
It's an add-on, learn to use it this month or in year, you might be happy you have it.

 

[CreativeCreative]

Thanks Gary.

You're definitely right.

This is my first time dealing with Summa, or anything like this.

I'm just confused by their approach here on a $70k transaction.
Basically "You touched it, it's yours!"

As a business owner, if one of my clients was unhappy on something that was as ambiguous as this,
I would refund them the 2% just to move on.

But a good lesson learned.

 

[chrisphilipps]

I can see your point but I can also see Summa's point. From Summa's side of things, Summa's software is working as advertised and it is your Rip software that isn't. This issue is really up to reseller of the equipment, not Summa, to ask presales questions. That is the part of the reason Summa, or for that matter any equipment manufacturer, has resellers. Personally as a reseller of this equipment, if our sales or tech team missed it we would have worked with the customer and not expected Summa to do anything.

Also from my experience it is industry standard for software upgrades to be non-returnable.

 

[CreativeCreative]

I can see your point but I can also see Summa's point. From Summa's side of things, Summa's software is working as advertised and it is your Rip software that isn't. This issue is really up to reseller of the equipment, not Summa, to ask presales questions. That is the part of the reason Summa, or for that matter any equipment manufacturer, has resellers. Personally as a reseller of this equipment, if our sales or tech team missed it we would have worked with the customer and not expected Summa to do anything.

Also from my experience it is industry standard for software upgrades to be non-returnable.

Hey Chris, that's a good point.

I have been going through Grimco to communicate with Summa, but at this point, Grimco told me there's nothing else they can do.

To be fair, my Grimco rep has been great throughout this whole process, but I don't think he was familiar of how this Barcode option worked.

 

[CanuckSigns]

This is 100% on grimco, they should be knowledgeable enough to know that the barcode is not compatible with rasterlink and advise you not to get it.

Having said that we also have the f1612 with the barcode, and honestly it's worth the added cost, makes it much easier for employees to use, and makes the machine pretty much idiot proof. It might be worth ditching rasterlink for onyx or caldera, maybe grimco can give you a good deal on onyx since they messed up on this (they probally won't, but worth a shot)

 

[PHILJOHNSON]

Good morning,

If you purchased this flatbed during the promo period(May 4 - June 24) the Pro Pack upgrade was included at no cost so you shouldn't have been charged for that. The upgrade normally costs $2,190 also, so if you were able to get that for $1,400 you got a good deal on that. Obviously that's only valuable if you can use the feature, which you cannot in this case, but that shouldn't have cost you anything if you purchased during the promo. Not sure they'll be able to offer any sort of refund given that the upgrade was a freebie included with the promo, but maybe they can swap it out for one of the other tools like a kiss cutting tool.

If you ever need any replacement parts or any of the additional tools or media handling options we offer all of that and buy this by the container load. We also have tech support plans so you can access our tech team if there's ever a situation that Grimco can't figure out.

Best regards,

Phil Johnson
Airmark Corporation
(800)527-7778, ext. 112
philj@airmark.com

 

[CreativeCreative]

Good morning,

If you purchased this flatbed during the promo period(May 4 - June 24) the Pro Pack upgrade was included at no cost so you shouldn't have been charged for that. The upgrade normally costs $2,190 also, so if you were able to get that for $1,400 you got a good deal on that. Obviously that's only valuable if you can use the feature, which you cannot in this case, but that shouldn't have cost you anything if you purchased during the promo. Not sure they'll be able to offer any sort of refund given that the upgrade was a freebie included with the promo, but maybe they can swap it out for one of the other tools like a kiss cutting tool.

If you ever need any replacement parts or any of the additional tools or media handling options we offer all of that and buy this by the container load. We also have tech support plans so you can access our tech team if there's ever a situation that Grimco can't figure out.

Best regards,

Phil Johnson
Airmark Corporation
(800)527-7778, ext. 112
philj@airmark.com

Thank you Phil.

We placed the order end of December, I believe the promo was the 2nd tangential unit at the time.

I actually spoke to you guys at ISA in Atlanta. I got the whole story of Summa vs Airmark, which is...interesting.
I'm not sure if you were at the booth, but the techs I met were great.

Will definitely keep you in mind. I see how active you're on these forums and always trying to help. Very cool.

 

[PHILJOHNSON]

I was definitely at the show and I am guessing we probably met down there at some point. Feel free to contact me any time if there's ever anything I can do to help.

Best regards,

Phil Johnson
Airmark Corporation
(800)527-7778, ext. 112
philj@airmark.com

 

[White Haus]

The dealer should have had a conversation with you about what RIP you were using. Any dealer/tech/sales person worth a grain of salt should have been able to tell you that you can't print from rasterlink and use barcode features on an F series.

You can still manually add cut marks in Corel or Illustrator and print from any printer and cut on the F series, but that workflow makes the barcode feature useless.

We use onyx thrive to print to 3 printers and cut them all on a Summa F1612 or S140T.

I dropped Rasterlink after a couple of hours - it's useless as far as I'm concerned.

Ask them for a deal on an upgrade to Onyx if they won't budge on reimbursing you for the barcode add-on.

 

[garyroy]

Creative, go forth with this wise saying always in your mind.

"Multiply all equipment salesman's promises by 50%, then you have the truth".

A good portion of them have never even operated the equipment they sell.

 

[greysquirrel]

This should fall on grimco. They should have known or found out if it was compatible with your rip prior to sale. Unfortunately there’s nothing summa can do if it’s opened on your license

 

[Flint Sign & Neon]

This should fall on grimco. They should have known or found out if it was compatible with your rip prior to sale. Unfortunately there’s nothing summa can do if it’s opened on your license

F** why? Summa is a big Co. and ultimately it is a very simple and basic decision to put customer 1st and play it fair

 

[greysquirrel]

The reseller is responsible for your workflow needs when quoting equipment and software. You purchased everything from them. Not from the manufacturer. The problem with software, once it’s opened on a key it’s not returnable.
Grimco won’t be able to do anything about the software. They may not want to give you your money back. But if they value you as a customer they should kick you some consumables compensate you.

 

[GB2]

No offense but personally I think it's incumbent upon you to know what it is that you are spending money on and whether or not it works with your system should have been one of the first questions you should have asked. As others have said, I especially don't view it as Summa's responsibility but more so the sales rep that sold it to you. Still they could have done the most thorough job imaginable and try to think of everything for you but in the end....your responsibility.

 

[CreativeCreative]

No offense but personally I think it's incumbent upon you to know what it is that you are spending money on and whether or not it works with your system should have been one of the first questions you should have asked. As others have said, I especially don't view it as Summa's responsibility but more so the sales rep that sold it to you. Still they could have done the most thorough job imaginable and try to think of everything for you but in the end....your responsibility.

None taken.

In hindsight, yes there should've been other things I should've asked. Unfortunately, I wasn't aware of how the barcode option worked, first time using a flatbed cutter.
I thought it was an option for GoProduce, since it's in included as an option for GoProduce Pro Pack. From their site:

If we want to go down that rabbit hole, I would've had to ask 1000 questions to cover every possible scenario for every possible software/hardware/tool option.
I know what you're saying, all I'm saying is since this particular part of the software doesn't work with all RIPs, it should've been in writing somewhere.

For example, they did provide a document for installation with plenty of other information for details a new owner wouldn't know. Dimensions, weight, points for forks when lifting. Electrical specs, type of plug, line requirements. These are all unknowns, and I feel somewhere it should've said "Barcode option compatible with the following RIPs..."

And hey, shit happens. It's not a huge deal. I would've taken this as a learning opportunity, and said "Dear customer, even though you purchased this feature, here is a refund in good faith. Please use this new license for your software that removes that particular functionality". And then turned around and amended the documentation to prevent this from happening in the future.

Whether it was Summa or Grimco that should've handled it, doesn't make a difference to me. They worked together on this sale.

Summa should've had it in their specs/marketing materials. Grimco should've known what they were selling. Summa should've informed their distributors of the specifics of this software. And so on.

 

[GB2]

Actually it's almost the other way around in the rabbit hole...they would have to ask 1000 questions to cover every option that every customer might have...you only have to ask about what you know you have. None the less, your feelings about the situation are very reasonable and, without looking at all the specs they advertised, you do have some valid points worth speaking up about.

 

[CanuckSigns]

Actually it's almost the other way around in the rabbit hole...they would have to ask 1000 questions to cover every option that every customer might have...you only have to ask about what you know you have. None the less, your feelings about the situation are very reasonable and, without looking at all the specs they advertised, you do have some valid points worth speaking up about.

Not really, all they would need to do is put a line in the small print about barcode functionality is not available in all rips, please consult your reseller for more information.

 

[balstestrat]

And hey, **** happens. It's not a huge deal. I would've taken this as a learning opportunity, and said "Dear customer, even though you purchased this feature, here is a refund in good faith. Please use this new license for your software that removes that particular functionality". And then turned around and amended the documentation to prevent this from happening in the future.

The license system is probably not built like that, they just can't do it even if someone would want to.

 

[jerry369]

The Barcode option can be freely activated on GoProduce for a trial period of 30 days. More than enough to check if it suits your needs. If your RIP does not generate a barcode that meets Summa specifications you can add it by yourself to the graphics, not so easy but it can be done.