New guy interested in pricing thoughts?

[jdwilliams1]

I am interssted in what your general rule of thumb is on pricing. I certainly know it will vary from different areas of the country. But when making a sign are you generally using a multiplier on material assuming you are not doing installation? What about a delivery fee or do you hide that in the costs?

We have a golf course interested in a couple signs they will be going indoors so I am thinking of printing them on ACM with our flatbed UV printer. The 2 signs would be 40 x 23 inches. In this case would you price is based on the just the part of the ACM board you will be using or would you just say hey, it's going to use one board and then use a multiplier from there? Would you laminate this?

Yeah sorry I am a newby. I know the subject has been beaten to death.

Thanks

 

[unclebun]

Are you a sign professional? Then your price for a sign should include not only the full cost of materials necessary for doing the job, but also in case you make a mistake and have to do it again to deliver a quality product. In addition, it should include the amount necessary to cover your professional expertise and knowledge for as long as it took to talk to the customer, sell the job, design the job, order materials, manufacture the signs, invoice and bill and deliver (whether that's over the counter or to the customer site). It should also cover the cost of your building for that time, your employees, and the cost of purchasing and maintaining your equipment and inventory.

Or you could just double your cost on the ACM and think you made 100% profit.

 

[ProntoPrinter]

I operate a commercial print and sign shop and produce traditional printing with digital and offset presses as well as wide format and signage projects. The wide format side has way more room for profit. We consistently get 6-10 times the cost of vinyl and at least 2-4 times the cost of rigid materials like ACM. Starting out, you'll be tempted to sell yourself short to get the work flowing. I would encourage you to pick and choose which projects you are willing to make a little less on in order to cement a business relationship. In my part of the country, we can get $80-$90 for a 40x23 ACM sign w/ lam. I would recommend laminating signage going outdoors.

Unclebun pretty much nails it with the detail you need to consider in your pricing. You'll be disappointed at the end of the year if you don't hammer out what your operating costs are and incorporate that into everything you do.

 

[Splash0321]

Like one of the above comments I add in to my estimate for every job the potential cost to remake the item.

My calculations for estimates is based on what I want to profit from the job. I typically mark up supplies/job costs by 250%, then I charge $1250 for labor per day so if the job is going to take 4 hours to make and install I add $625 to the estimate. I work alone so that’s my labor charge but if I had several employees I would tone the labor charge per hour down. I’m also not busy 100% of the time so this labor charge helps offset the cost of downtime I experience. Those prices work for me. I also do something most people wouldn’t consider but I have a customer multiplier based on how difficult or picky I feel they will be. That multiplier ranges from x1 for easy going customers up to 1.5 for customers that give off obvious vibes that they’ll be a headache. I’m not afraid to lose one of those customer and adding in that multiplier makes the job worthwhile.

 

[jdwilliams1]

I operate a commercial print and sign shop and produce traditional printing with digital and offset presses as well as wide format and signage projects. The wide format side has way more room for profit. We consistently get 6-10 times the cost of vinyl and at least 2-4 times the cost of rigid materials like ACM. Starting out, you'll be tempted to sell yourself short to get the work flowing. I would encourage you to pick and choose which projects you are willing to make a little less on in order to cement a business relationship. In my part of the country, we can get $80-$90 for a 40x23 ACM sign w/ lam. I would recommend laminating signage going outdoors.

Unclebun pretty much nails it with the detail you need to consider in your pricing. You'll be disappointed at the end of the year if you don't hammer out what your operating costs are and incorporate that into everything you do.

Thank you so much for the response ProntoPrinter, this really helps. Couple more questions if you have time. So in this scenario, with the sign going indoors, would you hesitate using UV flatbed with no laminant? This is going in a golf course clubhouse.

 

[jdwilliams1]

Like one of the above comments I add in to my estimate for every job the potential cost to remake the item.

My calculations for estimates is based on what I want to profit from the job. I typically mark up supplies/job costs by 250%, then I charge $1250 for labor per day so if the job is going to take 4 hours to make and install I add $625 to the estimate. I work alone so that’s my labor charge but if I had several employees I would tone the labor charge per hour down. I’m also not busy 100% of the time so this labor charge helps offset the cost of downtime I experience. Those prices work for me. I also do something most people wouldn’t consider but I have a customer multiplier based on how difficult or picky I feel they will be. That multiplier ranges from x1 for easy going customers up to 1.5 for customers that give off obvious vibes that they’ll be a headache. I’m not afraid to lose one of those customer and adding in that multiplier makes the job worthwhile.

Hey Splash0321, really appreciate the response and I love the customer multiplier idea...genious!

 

[ProntoPrinter]

Thank you so much for the response ProntoPrinter, this really helps. Couple more questions if you have time. So in this scenario, with the sign going indoors, would you hesitate using UV flatbed with no laminant? This is going in a golf course clubhouse.

You’re welcome! I wouldn’t be as concerned with laminating the sign if it will be indoors only. You should be fine with no lam. You might want to consider how the sign will be mounted/hung though. If you or the customer intend to mount with standoffs, you’ll be drilling through the face of the sign. I’ve had UV ink chip when being drilled through. Of course if there’s no ink where your drilling you have nothing to worry about

 

[Elwood "Woody" Smith]

We laminate all Maxmetal. On all small orders that are custom and do not fit into our weekly gang run Real Estate sign sizes. You pay for a whole sheet min.

 

[citysignshop]

Lots of good advice here...perhaps don't get fixated on the exact price for each square inch of the finished product.
You are also in the SALES business, maybe these signs should include 'Free delivery ....for preferred clients ONLY!"
you go to the clubhouse, shake hands with the manager, provide advice on the installation and care of the sign, and leave with pictures and notes on the 50 other signs they need! What other shop is doing that? probably none!

When I was starting out, just like you....very little experience, a personal visit Always ended up with another order, and the client had my flyer and some business cards on their desk!

Signcraft magazine has been around a long time, and really tries to help out the small shop guys....the McIltrot boys ran their own shop for years out of a garage, before they started publishing!
.....there are other resources as well, I mean, if you're opening a Pizza joint, a LOT of the same things apply!
What's your investment? ( interest on borrowed money becomes part of your overhead, right?)
You're open 10 hours, but only sell pizza for 6...gotta cover those other hours. How much does the equipment cost....and how often does it need to be replaced?
Start with actually KNOWING your overhead....it's always an eye-opener!

https://www.signcraft.com/libraries/docs/SPG_Hourly_rate_for_Web.pdf

If you haven't subscribed, it's cheap!
Best of luck!

 

[Stacey K]

I'm at the same price as ProntoPrinter. I have my pricing on a spreadsheet and common size prices that include 15 minutes of artwork. If you go on FireSprints website he has a template for calculating your hourly along with multiple pricing calculators for decals, coroplast, etc. I use a lot of them and they are very helpful. Signcraft has a pricing calculator and an hourly wage calculator. Sign Expert has some pricing.

Half and full day pricing for labor I do that also just as a double check on my larger projects.

If you are really ever in doubt, look up whatever you are making on Signs.com and make sure you are charging more than they are. People can laugh but I've used that tactic multiple times when I just really have zero idea. It's a minimum starting point. Add on your design fees, etc.

There's no one way to do it and unfortunately with signs there is no cement pricing because you have the design factor and each job is a little different but it's good to have base prices and build off of those.

 

[unclebun]

Another item that I seldom hear talked about nowadays but was drilled into me when I started in the industry was that you don't base sign pricing solely on your costs but also on the value of the sign to the customer. That is to say that as sign professionals you are not just a vendor of plastic, aluminum, and ink, but those elements combined with advertising value.

 

[Gene@mpls]

I read somewhere - the highest price you can tell the customer without laughing.

 

[Gino]

I read somewhere - the highest price you can tell the customer without laughing.

And if they stay there without falling over..... say plus installation.

 

[Humble PM]

if<20% reject your prices, you're not charging enough.
That should deal with the lowballers

 

[Ron at Forest Litho]

Are you a sign professional? Then your price for a sign should include not only the full cost of materials necessary for doing the job, but also in case you make a mistake and have to do it again to deliver a quality product. In addition, it should include the amount necessary to cover your professional expertise and knowledge for as long as it took to talk to the customer, sell the job, design the job, order materials, manufacture the signs, invoice and bill and deliver (whether that's over the counter or to the customer site). It should also cover the cost of your building for that time, your employees, and the cost of purchasing and maintaining your equipment and inventory.

Or you could just double your cost on the ACM and think you made 100% profit.

I appreciate the consideration of Re-Make cost. If you do a little of that consistently, its like taking out your own insurance policy. The cost of the hopefully few times you have to do that are spread out in your charges over time.

 

[Ron at Forest Litho]

if<20% reject your prices, you're not charging enough.
That should deal with the lowballers

i KNEW A PRINTER WHO RAISED HIS PRICES. HE GOT RID OF The LOW PROFIT jobs, KEPT THE ONES that ACTUALLY PAID HIM, Worked less hard and MADE THE SAME AMOUNT OF MONEY. CONCENTRATED ON MAKING His GOOD ACCOUNTS HAPPY.

 

[Splash0321]

if<20% reject your prices, you're not charging enough.
That should deal with the lowballers

I like a 33% rejection rate. That seems to be the sweet spot for me.

 

[FireSprint.com]

 

[TopFliteGraphics]

Since you are so new to the business, I HIGHLY recommend picking up a copy and reading Mike Michalowicz's book "Profit First." Implement his strategies as soon as possible and you won't regret it. I did it about 14 moonths ago and really wish I would have 14 years ago. It probably would have changed my life!

Another bit of advice that has worked well for me, once you figure out a price for a job, add 15%. That can give you some wiggle room should anybody ask if you can do better. You'll have the piece of mind knowing that you can go back, "sharpen the pencil" and give them "better" price if they seem like a client you want to cultivate. I they don't ask, guess what? You just earned an extra 15% you would have left on the table.

 

[Sidney]

I am interssted in what your general rule of thumb is on pricing. I certainly know it will vary from different areas of the country. But when making a sign are you generally using a multiplier on material assuming you are not doing installation? What about a delivery fee or do you hide that in the costs?

We have a golf course interested in a couple signs they will be going indoors so I am thinking of printing them on ACM with our flatbed UV printer. The 2 signs would be 40 x 23 inches. In this case would you price is based on the just the part of the ACM board you will be using or would you just say hey, it's going to use one board and then use a multiplier from there? Would you laminate this?

Yeah sorry I am a newby. I know the subject has been beaten to death.

Thanks

I agree with alot of the replies. I double my expenses (like UncleBun)... that way I am not out of pocket for a re-do. I do not hide shipping/delivery fee because it's time and gas and so I let the customer know they can pick up the sign to save money. My pricing is Material X2+ 40% etc. This helps me seperate the fishers from serious customers. As far as charging for only the amount of the board you use is up to you, but I charge for the whole board if I am using more than 75% of the board (this I build into the price without the customer knowing, otherwise the 25% may just sit in the shop. The quality and reputation of my work allows for me to stay to this formula.