New Machine Purchase coming soon, but which one?

[jfiscus]

We are going to have to add another machine to our production department here due to our increasing workload.
We currently run two aging Mimaki JV3s with a million miles on each (but they still run all day every day) and have plenty of plotters so we don't need a print/cut solution.

We were dead-set on a HP latex for a couple years, but still keep reading a lot of issues with them online.... so we aren't so sure and want to make the right decision.
The sales reps are always only going to tell you the info to get you to buy one, so I wanted to put the question out there of what you would choose if you were going to buy one now.

We print a lot of vibrant wraps and are also worried about color consistency and longevity of the prints.

 

[rjssigns]

A good argument could be made to stay with Mimaki solvent printers. Learning curve if any, should be minimal. All your canned profiles should work too, saving time and money.

HP latex has some good points too, but why introduce a "foreign object" into your workflow?

Gotta go, I can hear the HP latex crowd gathering their pitchforks and torches.:Big Laugh

 

[HulkSmash]

I have a latex,
they have some problems. But - i would never, never go back to solvent.


the problems are more in the older models. The new one has been flawless for us. The occasional color shift is a little issue, but the new firmware has helped a bit with that.

 

[Andy D]

All I can say is my one experience with latex and HP was not great.
I'm yet see any convincing evidence that latex is better in any way than Eco solvent.
I love my Mimaki and would stick with that because I know it inside and out.
If I were you, I would get the newest and greatest Mimaki solvent printer and rock on.

 

[Andy D]

I have a latex,
they have some problems. But - i would never, never go back to solvent.

What issues did you have with solvent?

 

[ColoPrinthead]

Anything but latex. Sure it's nice they don't smell, but they are disposable printers made of plastic. I hate that the latex inks don't dry on their own and prefer a machine made from metal that will last for years. We have an all HP line up, FB700, L26500, and LX850; I hate all of it. Getting parts for the FB is an absolute nightmare, waiting 2 months for standard parts, then getting a kit with the parts I need missing (wipers) and then repeating the process for another part (encoder strip).

HP can suck it.

 

[Andy D]

Anything but latex. Sure it's nice they don't smell, but they are disposable printers made of plastic. I hate that the latex inks don't dry on their own and prefer a machine made from metal that will last for years.
HP can suck it.

Agreed, except that our Mimaki isn't vented and doesn't stink with the eco-inks.

 

[BIG EASY DOES IT]

Used 25500, 26500, and now the L360. Wouldn't change from latex. Used some mimakis at a shop I worked in for a couple months. Hated every minute of it. Would never go back from my latex to anything else as of now. Had issues with the 25500 and a couple with the 26500 but for the most part no problems with the 360. It's been a year since we got it. Had trouble with reds at first but you need to run 10-12 pass on reflective grayish medias to get your brighter colors.

 

[Gino]

In my opinion, that's all you're really getting here, mostly emotional opinions...... I bought this, therefore it's good.. I heard about that, therefore it's bad. Lottsa hearsay and emotions flying around. Some have been lemons and that will happen on both sides of the aisle, but what you should really do, is narrow it down to 2 or 3 you like, can afford and want and take YOUR files to them and see first hand everything involved. Make the best decision you can and make it work. We all have our machinery which will have some shortcomings on this or that, but you learn to work around those things.


Good luck.................

 

[TomK]

In my opinion, that's all you're really getting here, mostly emotional opinions...... I bought this, therefore it's good.. I heard about that, therefore it's bad. Lottsa hearsay and emotions flying around. Some have been lemons and that will happen on both sides of the aisle, but what you should really do, is narrow it down to 2 or 3 you like, can afford and want and take YOUR files to them and see first hand everything involved. Make the best decision you can and make it work. We all have our machinery which will have some shortcomings on this or that, but you learn to work around those things.


Good luck.................

Can't get any better than this response, and it leaves the emotions out of it. It is exactly what I did, I went and visited the Roland dealer and then the HP dealer, took my sample files, had them printed, etc.

We ended up going the HP 310 route for a few different reasons, quality was not one of them, as the Roland output was just as good as the HP was.

 

[rjssigns]

Used 25500, 26500, and now the L360. Wouldn't change from latex. Used some mimakis at a shop I worked in for a couple months. Hated every minute of it. Would never go back from my latex to anything else as of now. Had issues with the 25500 and a couple with the 26500 but for the most part no problems with the 360. It's been a year since we got it. Had trouble with reds at first but you need to run 10-12 pass on reflective grayish medias to get your brighter colors.

Okay feet to the coals time. What was so loathsome about the Mimakis? Factual data only.

 

[BIG EASY DOES IT]

Okay feet to the coals time. What was so loathsome about the Mimakis? Factual data only.

The wet prints was the worst issue I had. Going from a L25500 to a mimaki was not fun. Keeping the prints from touching themselves with the high ink content. (Wrap shop) While they dried. The shop did about 5 trucks a day. Trying to keep it all clean before you could load it into the laminator, with 10 other guys running around the shop wrapping stuff. Loading the printer from behind was also a PITA by my book. The ease of loading the latex and unloading was much better IMO.

The print quality was just as good as the latex. I wouldn't say better though. We had significant banding on lighter colors. This could have been a printhead issue though. As they always wanted to clean and never replace printheads.

The smell of 4 solvent printers running together all day. Filled the warehouse up.

These issues are actually what had me finding a different job. Much happier back at a latex shop.

 

[Bly]

We went from Rolands to HP latex.
The Rolands were tough to keep running without banding on solid fills unless you ran them at 1 billion pass.
They were simple, solid and reliable though.
The HPs will run a whole roll of vinyl without banding at decent speed once loaded and output can be laminated right away for wraps.
We do a lot of promo decals which now can be sent out unlaminated, unlike the ecosol.

 

[SightLine]

My opinion.... if you have been running Mimaki's this long then stay with them. Everything will be immediately familiar and if you are still running ancient JV3 machines and go to the newest you will skip an entire generation (JV33) and the differences in how much easier these are to maintain now will be just about stunning to you. Even the JV33 machines are far easier to deal with than the JV3.

Latex does have its place and has improved a LOT but it will still be a big change from what you are used to. Also don't buy into the "iphone" of wide format and "ecologically friendly stuff. Yes they are the trendy thing to have and all but if the HP needs dual 240V 16A circuits (they are pulling 4600 watts when printing) versus the Mimaki's which use far less power only needing a regular 120v plug outlet. The JV150 (most comparable step from your JV3) only pulls a max of 1440 watts, even the dual head JV300 (which would be a more direct competitor for an HP 360 speedwise) still only doubles that at 2880 watts and still used regular 120v plug outlets. Also like many so called"green" products, often times what a manufacturer has to do to make the product green by far offsets the fact that the end product is green. I really have no idea what goes into HP Latex inks so that might not be fair though. Regardless, if the printer is using double the energy to produce the same product than I don't personally think its really any "greener". Its about $$$$ and green is a hot buzzword that people will pay extra for – same with recycling, by far recycling is much more about profit than actually helping the environment. The inks themselves - again, not really sure. I do know the VOC's in the HP latex inks are below gov't thresholds for being an issue. Of course there is the very big advantage of the HP latex in that the prints are "usually" immediately dry after the printer cooks... er.. I mean cures them. Another plus - the new JV150 and JV300 machines, if you want an extreme color gamut, well with their new orange ink you would flat our blow the HP's color gamut away, not just beat it.

Please don't get me wrong. I'm not totally knocking the HP. I think in the long run there will almost certainly be a move away from solvent. Currently though, solvent is far from dead and pretty much all wide format printer manufacturers are still designing and making brand new solvent model printers. The HP has some nice things sure like a built in like the i1 spectro for creating color profiles and prints that are immediately dry are of course an obvious big plus. I just see many people on the web going "apple fan" blindly fanatical about them without giving any realistic hard evidence or independent proof to some of the claims being made. Its also amusing to me that for a very long time Grimco was a big Mimaki dealer too. Just like most things its all about the money and we are all going to push what makes us the most money, even if it means to an extent steering a customer to the item we represent while not really educating them on the real differences between competing products.

In the end Gino had it very right. You need to get what is best for you, not necessarily what every else says is the best.

 

[BIG EASY DOES IT]

As far as the electrical is concerned. The machines are energystar certified. Energy efficient machines. The need for the 220V power is so you can run the heaters and the printer without blowing a breaker.

 

[BIG EASY DOES IT]

This video is a little old. it features the HP L25500 but here are some things to think about.

[video=youtube;-1jKBVOPQXc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1jKBVOPQXc[/video]



Though I would throw this in also. Saw some posts about empty ink carts. Not actually being empty. I believe it was a roland post. And there is like 2oz or so in each cart leftover. Well I cracked open an empty cart. The L360 just asked me to replace and there is maybe .5oz left. I broke the bag also to see what was left.

Just so you know the Latex machines ink carts are actually very empty when they say empty. Not when the machine says very low. Wait till it prompts to replace the cart because it is fully empty.

 

[GAC05]

I'm also looking at a new printer.
Question I have is local support.
For someone in my situation with support no closer than a few thousand miles by commercial (expensive) air which would be the wiser purchase?
The added complexity of the latex machine over a simple 4 color eco solvent worries me.
I've worked enough with my Mutoh to be semi-confident that I can tear it down and change out parts to get it back up.
From reading some of the latex issues here I'm not sure I could do it.
Are the HPs more reliable compared to a good eco sol?

wayne k
guam usa

 

[Andy D]

I don't personally think its really any "greener". Its about $$$$ and green is a hot buzzword that people will pay extra for

Plus companies that can't compete with the other big players in that field like to dream up a whole new field, so that they have a prayer of selling machines.
IMHO I think Light cyan and light magenta was more of a sell ploy than a improvement, I switched a couple of my printers from CMYK lc lm to CMYK
to consolidate the good print heads and save mucho dinero & I can't see any lower print quality..

 

[Andy D]

As far as the electrical is concerned. The machines are energystar certified. Energy efficient machines. The need for the 220V power is so you can run the heaters and the printer without blowing a breaker.

I'm not a electrical engineer, but doesn't that pretty much prove that your printer draws and uses more electricity than a 110 solvent printer?

 

[player]

^ Yes, but the Latex print faster, and 220v iss more efficient...