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New to Channel Letters

rcubed

New Member
Hi, I have posted this topic elsewhere, but it seems to be better suited to here. I have been asked to install a design and install a channel letter sign. I am just looking for some advice on pitfalls, questions I should ask, codes I don't know about ( I realize this is mainly dependent on where you are). Just all the stuff that I might be missing and what to watch out for, any and all help will be greatly appreciated, thank you in advance
 

Rick

Certified Enneadecagon Designer
To answer your question better...

Since you are in Michigan, do you have any of the following contractors licenses in your state...

-- SIGN SPECIALIST LICENSE or
-- ELECTRICAL SIGN CONTRACTOR LICENSE or
-- GENERAL CONTRACTOR LICENSE

or, are you installing your own sign?

Then the next question, what type of wall is it?

Can electrical be wired behind the site area where the sign is being installed?
 

rcubed

New Member
Unsure

Hey man, thanks for the response. I am sure I can get a someone certified to wire it. from what I can tell reading the city ordinance it needs to pass a building inspectors scrutiny, I am trying to find out up front who I need to contract that part out to. The install is fairly straight forward, it is on a wooden wall, reachable with short ladders or scaffolding quite easily. I am going to use either race mount letters or logo box style sign. if need be I can just sub contract the install part. I won't make the money I wanted, but I'm trying to build a business and I don't want to be the guy who can't get it done. Thanks for your help, any other feedback will be greatly appreciated.
 

Rick

Certified Enneadecagon Designer
Having someone "hookup" the electrical, or install it is
not the issue.

-- What license do YOU have?

-- What insurance do you have?

-- Can you slap a UL Decal (this will be inspected) on it and be the
responsible insurer (it will be asked) for the install and the site?

-- Do you KNOW this client? Did they ask if you have a license....
THEY DON'T HAVE TO PAY YOU if you don't have a license,
they can call the license board and you can get fined on top
of that. If I remember right, it's $10,000 each violation, you
can have multiple violations on a single job depending on
how poorly it's done.

In your state, in order to do signage work (except for wraps,
banners, promotional) over 600.00 you need to have one
of the contractors license to do that. You can NOT act as a
contractor and sub it out. You can't take any money and have
someone else do the whole thing or part of it.

In order to get just the SIGN SPECIALIST contractors license,
you need 4000 hours of verifiable experience from another
licensed shop.

--------------------------------

Generally as far as getting the sign permitted, the process is:

-- You always look up the sign code (usually find that in the
city/county website)

-- Some municipalities require a "sign program" - This is usually
given to the tenant as a criteria for how large a sign can be.

-- Once you get that information, you design it, get it approved
by the tenant, then the landlord.

-- Once done, then you make a permit package that includes an
- overall map where the sign is located
- an elevation and side view with measurements and side view that
are within the square footage allowed
- a section view of how it's attached, wall construction, how it's lit,
and electrical hook up, then...

-- Take it to the city's Building/Permiting Department it is then that
they will ask you for a CONTRACTORS LICENSE (and maybe even a
business for that city)

-------------------------------

Why are you using a raceway or logo box? Are they allowed?
In some areas, they are not, you need to look it up in the sign code.

Wood wall means nothing, is it stud framed? any material in-between that
can conduct electricity? Any place to stub electrical from behind?...
Just wood? sounds kinda sketchy...

Raceways are ugly, logo boxes can be. Just depends on the design.
Attaching is pretty straightforward once you know the wall contraction,
pounce pattern, drill holes, fasten with correct fasteners, correct pass thrus'
all connections should be water tight, no wires exposed.

-------------------------------

My suggestion is:
You want to learn how to do this, and service your clients with a quality
and SAFE product? partner with a licensed shop, act as the salesman/project
manager, and watch/follow the installers around and learn that part of
the business... they make the money, but you get the needed hours to
get a license and be legit... or what we do... Design the package, send
it out to bid, have the client deal directly with the sign shop and you get
paid for design only.

I get you want to do this, and get some money, but your state is pretty strict...
I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm trying to warn you of the pitfalls... last time I
warned a sign maker here, she thought I slapped her hand... we ended up becoming
business partners and doing pretty good just designing and sending jobs out to bid.
You are not helping your clients (or yourself) if you are doing this illegally.
 

visual800

Active Member
I can just sub contract the install part. I won't make the money I wanted, but I'm trying to build a business and I don't want to be the guy who can't get it done.

Dont feel less of a man because you dont take on amajor role of doing most work. back when economy was great I had a larger sign co going out and doing all my fab and install work and I could have cared less. SURE! I would have made more on it but it was done and I was able to concentrate on other things. I still to this day have no printer, no big *** walk in shop and could care less. its the product you produce not HOW its produced
 

rcubed

New Member
Thanks, sorta

Thanks for all your help guys. Rick for not trying to sound like a jerk your kinda pushing the edge of jerkdom. I mean no offense, that's just the way it reads. Regardless I appreciate your wisdom and advice and will take it under consideration. Thank you for the perspective.
 

GB2

Old Member
Whoa.....you just got great advice from one of the most qualified members of this forum who was gracious enough to write that all out for you....obviously you didn't deserve it. I'd delete that last comment if I were you.
 

TimToad

Active Member
Thanks for all your help guys. Rick for not trying to sound like a jerk your kinda pushing the edge of jerkdom. I mean no offense, that's just the way it reads. Regardless I appreciate your wisdom and advice and will take it under consideration. Thank you for the perspective.

You gotta a lotta nerve coming here with 6 posts to your name, putting your profit before learning what is legally required of you to even take on a particular kind of job, which you obviously are not either properly licensed or knowledgeable about calling someone with decades more experience a jerk.

Do you have any idea what would happen to you financially if you screwed up on installing an electrical sign or letters on a WOOD facade and it caught on fire with the building full of people?

Rick was trying to save you from yourself, but the thought of "building your business" by not turning down what could be a business killing liability was too much for you to consider.

Here's what you do, you become friends with the legitimate electrical sign contractors in your area and you refer the jobs to them for a small finder's fee if you must make something on every lead that walks through your doors. You can provide them with the decorated faces if need be, or do nothing and build your business on the types of work you are licensed to produce.


Before even that, I'd work on your apology to Rick.
 

GypsyGraphics

New Member
aaaah yes.... i remember it well. good times on s101....

with 17 years experience as a designer, only a few years in signage and no experience with channel letters...
i posted this thread
Channel Letter HELP

in case you're not a premium member, in short, it went something like this
posted what i "THOUGHT" was my problem
was read the riot act by the illustrious "Circle Designer"
thanked him for the smack down
booger flicking ensued
yep... good times! :Big Laugh

take it from me rcubed... the appropriate response was...
gee thanks Rick! :rock-n-roll:


like it or not.... HE'S GOT YOUR BACK
 

GypsyGraphics

New Member
Thanks for all your help guys. Rick for not trying to sound like a jerk your kinda pushing the edge of jerkdom. I mean no offense, that's just the way it reads. Regardless I appreciate your wisdom and advice and will take it under consideration. Thank you for the perspective.

FYI: i had to laugh when i read that, because i often say with as much attitude and in the most sarcastic voice i can muster...
thanks for your "ADVICE" and/or "PERSPECTIVE" rick, i'll take that under advisement
sarcastically becuase, even as the words leave my lips, i'm puuuuurdie sure it's neither

it's cause for jubilant celebration around here when my "perspective" turns out to be more correct than his :ROFLMAO:
 

Rick

Certified Enneadecagon Designer
FYI: i had to laugh when i read that, because i often say with as much attitude and in the most sarcastic voice i can muster...
thanks for your "ADVICE" and/or "PERSPECTIVE" rick, i'll take that under advisement
sarcastically becuase, even as the words leave my lips, i'm puuuuurdie sure it's neither

it's cause for jubilant celebration around here when my "perspective" turns out to be more correct than his :ROFLMAO:


I hate it when you're right... I know what happens when you are right...
 

TimToad

Active Member
rcubed,

It takes a really mature and big person to do what you did. I hope you can understand that the vast majority of us here are mostly interested in helping you avoid the pitfalls, mistakes and hard lessons that many of us have learned.

I may be very direct, but its because I care about our craft and those dedicated to doing it the right way. You just proved that you belong.

I'll reiterate my earlier advice, get good at the type of work you can legally provide and leave the stuff over your capabilities and licensing to others. Don't underestimate the financial and reputation cost of even one job that goes up wrong, fails or possibly injures a passerby. Nothing is worth that.
 
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