Newbie Posts

[onesmf]

Someone took the time to seek some answers and probably stumbled upon this site during the course of their search on the internet. Think about when you were performing similar searches for something you knew absolutely nothing about. Like nothing related to your profession, perhaps home remoldeling or some sort of repair. You sought a quick answer to your questions at minimal cost, right?
Subsequent to reading the posts to the gentleman seeking some advise regarding the purchase of a plotter for his high school son possibly utilizing a plotter for a learning experience and personal growth, I saw a disturbing number of members here ripping the guy and turning the course of the post toward their own agenda. Fortunately, numerous members here take the posts for what they are worth, a short cut to finding some answers. Unfortunately, others see this as an opportunity to discourage and demean others that have yet to gain your knowledge. Lets face it, there are no trade secrets here or an avenue to send an individual soaring into riches because they gleened information from this site. If it were that easy, most of us would be out of business. Sharing information isn't going to contribute to another's success, dedication and expertise is.
I guess I created this post because on a regular basis I have encountered some very arrogant, negative individuals ripping others because they are ignorant to the industry. Well, we are all Americans looking for the American Dream. I'll admit, sometimes the questions are downright pathetic, but please take a second to blow off the steam and formulate an articulate response that doesn't come off as totally inane or just don't respond at all.
Finally, if you simply are fed-up with the re-occurring Newbie posts, just don't click on that portion of the forum. Thank you, and I am sure I will be ripped to shreds. Have a great day everyone, and I certainly appreciate your willingness to share your knowledge.

 

[Fred Weiss]

I agree with a good part of what you're saying and often wish some would just ignore these kinds of posts. We could all be a little more courteous.

Yet at the same time, there is a considerable sentiment here that membership should be limited to individuals who at least meet a standard of wanting to enter into sign making as a profession if they are not already involved in the craft as a profession.

Towards that end, our registration form has had a few more questions added which directly deal with this issue and new registrants are requested not to complete the form unless they are, in fact, sign making professionals or seeking to enter the profession.

The original poster of the thread you point out, in fact, ignored the warning and lied to get approved. He received a number of honest and courteous answers before making replies which made his position as someone not seeking to become a professional much more obvious. That was when he started getting reactions we'll call rude.

In all, I would guess that he wasted a collective two or three hours at a minimum of member time who were trying to respond with helpful replies and with no intention of considering any of the excellent replies he received.

 

[grafixemporium]

Yet at the same time, there is a considerable sentiment here that membership should be limited to individuals who at least meet a standard of wanting to enter into sign making as a profession if they are not already involved in the craft as a profession.

Fred, I think you really need to consider a name change for this site. It really is misleading... especially considering the new direction you are trying to take things.

I agree with onesmf completely. I read through the thread about the $750 budget and was nauseated at most of the responses. Too many of you are throwing tact out the window and treating people with utter disrespect as you cower behind your keyboards.

You guys make signs. It's pretty simple. It's not brain surgery. And it's certainly not an exclusive club that requires 20 years of tenure to be accepted. You make signs. Ironically, some of you who talk the most trash aren't even that good at it!

This is SIGNS101 is it not? The name itself implies "beginner" or "newbie". You guys who have been around here for a while seem to think you have some sort of seniority that allows you the freedom to unleash on new members like some sort of childish hazing ritual.

Please. Give it a rest.

Just 2 months ago I was excited about this site and all it had to offer. I anxiously logged in each morning to see the responses of the homework challenges and to the questions that so many of us have.

It honestly seems that in the last 2 months, it's all gone to piss. I am now joining some other sign forums to see if there is a viable alternative to the abuse that is thrown about here so freely. I'm certainly not overwhelmingly excited about donating any amount of money -- no matter how trivial -- to this site just so I can log in each day and read more abuse.

I can deal with humor and an occassional jab at the regulars. I can even handle a flame every now and then when a complete and total moron comes along and deserves it. However, the guy in the $750 budget thread did nothing wrong and said nothing to deserve the punishment he got.

Get off your soapboxes and high horses and join us back here on Earth. You guys make signs.

 

[iSign]

I am now joining some other sign forums to see if there is a viable alternative to the abuse that is thrown about here so freely. I'm certainly not overwhelmingly excited about donating any amount of money -- no matter how trivial -- to this site just so I can log in each day and read more abuse.

by-bye :Oops:

 

[grafixemporium]

by-bye

I'm sorry Fred, but you're banning the wrong people around here.

 

[iSign]

I see crybabies sounding 'bout ready to be banning themselves... Fred ain't banned more than 1 or 2 in the last year...

...besides I think you're confusing "101" with preschool... 101 is a reference to college courses... not n00bs

do it, or don't.. spare us the drama & make your point without threats to abandon us... god forbid

 

[Jackpine]

This is another thread going wrong. The poster onesmf made some very true points and again someone has to boo-hoo the context of the message. What grafixemporium is also true and not threatening to anyone but gets slammed. I remember when there was no easy way to sort hardware, software and supplies out so you won't buy anything that was junk or from a "dead end" supplier. I agree a lot of "newbies" ask some pretty ignorant questions but I was taught "there are no stupid questions, just stupid answers". There seems to be a lot of prima donnas (the American College Dictionary) that want to sound off as the experts on every aspect of this trade. To quote onesmf "Sharing information isn't going to contribute to another's success, dedication and expertise is." I do a lot of my own repair and remodeling work on my property.... I am not a contractor and am smart enough to know when to seek an expert. Most everyone here goes to a building store for advice.and supplies....are we stealing from the contractor?
I remember when a very inventive tool was introduced to this industry and I wholeheartedly supported it. I had people in the trade contact me and asked about it because they thought it couldn't be that good since it seemed simple and thought is cost too much because it's simplicity. It isn't simple, it is ingenious! I told them to go out to their garage and make one or buy one and reap the rewards it will provide. Maybe we should stop once in a while and remember "who helped us" get started BEFORE we all became experts. Pass it forward.

 

[TheSnowman]

I'm sorry Fred, but you're banning the wrong people around here.

Are you kidding!? I thought all these posts were over with.

 

[steve b]

This is a great post! Great replies as well (except isign's). I read the thread and his intentions were to get his son into the profession for the time being (seeking to enter the profession). I'm not looking at his application to be a member here..... But to ban the guy and call him a liar is pathetic.

Hats off to onesmf and grafixemporium
steveb

 

[Jackpine]

There is a Graphtec CE3000Mk2 on eBay selling at $650.00. This is a very good cutter and will serve anyone well. The cutter comes with a stand and plugin software for Corel Draw and Adobe Illustrator. Sign Warehouse also sells cutter packages for upstart businesses. I have never bought hardware from Sign Warehouse but have dealt with Jerry Barrex their sales manager and found him and the company more than will to supply the correct equipment. Do your homework and you can find something in your budget that will serve you well.

Hats off to onesmf and grafixemporium
steveb
DITTO!

 

[signage]

All I can say is buying of eBay and knowing anything about a plotter, is you are taking a change/gamble! Also I fell if you do not have something constructive to say to a newbie then don't say anything. One more thing when you go to college you already know how to do research so use the search feature before asking repetitive questions, the plotter question has been asked about once every week and only get old real fast!

 

[Kevin T]

HAHAHA! I thought the guy did get the info we wanted. He just didn't like some of the advice he received. I guess that's too bad.

I don't care what you guys say there is no way to start that kid in this business for $750. It's foolish and too allow him to think so does a disservice to the man. The cutter may be $600 but you sure as hell need more than a cutter and a computer to get started or have you forgotten all the bits and pieces you've accumulated over the years. This guy wanted to accumulate that stuff NOW for the short term. He wasn't "entering the trade or profession" reread the thread and give your head a shake. The guy wanted a short term easy money job for his kid while he was in high school and clearly had other plans beyond this inquiry for his young man. Some of the posts were over the top, so what. You mean to tell me that his skin is so thin he couldn't take a little jab. I remind you that he took offence to some of the posts, one of mine specifically.

He accused me of being arrogant after I gave him the info he asked for. The advice I gave him was measured and fair. However he chose to look at it from the negative point of view and essentially told me my intentions were not good. The word "professional" was spat back at some of us like it was a curse word.

Before you jump on your high defensive horse you may consider the totality of the thread in question. While you may not like all the posts the info was provided and the gentleman decided to whine rather than use what he was given. As far a the poor taste in posting goes the thread was pretty much under control until a crap disturber decided to generalize and call everyone who had responded a "moron". Offering nothing himself other than that jem of wisdom. Followed by another fool who decided profanity was the way to respond when insulting everyone as well.

Honestly I found it somewhat insulting to have given an honest response only to be told I had somehow injured or discouraged someone. I clearly pointed him in the right direction, gave him some accurate advice, wished him well and sent him on his way. You may not like how I personally responded but perhaps you could cut some us the same slack you seem all to willing to cut those you want to defend.

ps Before you start pointing new people toward Ebay that want to enter the industry. You may want to consider what that experience may do when it goes bad. Did we not just have a thread about bootleg "Aurora Graphics" disks that were purchased that turned out to be crap? At least direct people, when they start out, to reputable suppliers that will be able to provide support. You know they're going to need it.

 

[SignBurst PCs]

Regardless of the level of laziness or stupidity in the question, I wonder how many of you "brave" souls offering up the smart@$$ posts would speak that way in person.

I agree, there are posts that are just stupid. Do you actually walk around telling stupid people that they are stupid. How about inexperienced people? Do you tell every inexperienced person you that you meet that they need to get a clue?

It is really easy to be an @$$ from behind your computer, but if you are that brave behind the computer, and not so in real life, I think you might have an issue there.

I tend to agree with the idea of, "use a little tact". I am not saying that someone should be "babied", I just don't see the need to insult people on here. What purpose does that serve?

It is not just the $750 guy. I read posts on a daily basis that serve no purpose other than to degrade someone. The $750 guy's position was very questionsable at best, but he didn't post to insult your level of professionalism.

Some of the folks on here ask some very "basic" questions about computers. They are looking for answers. Sometimes their budgets are not what I would consider adequate. I help them the best I can with what they have. I DO tell them that they would be better served with a better (more $$$, higher quality, faster) computer, but (in most cases) that doesn't stop me from offering my best advice about their current situation.

 

[Bigdawg]

Just a quick thought and I'll be offline most of the day.

The OP in the thread referenced did not tell the truth in his application. That is a requirement to help filter this site. I have banned a new member who lied and put a bogus phone number on his application. Same thing. That's why the OP is no longer a member. He was pointed to ebay by myself as well as others. Helpful advice was given to him. If I had known of a cutter under $750 I certainly would have directed him to it.

As far as the other 2 members and the post i deleted on that thread originally - you don't get to drop the f*bomb in the general forum. That's not why the other two got put in time out (no they are not banned). But when Fred or I delete or edit a post there is a reason for it. My big worry when NHB started was the bleed over of language into the main site. So yes, I will be a jerk about policing that if I have to be. Those members still have access to the site, but they can't post. The site structure is what it is and frankly I don't see why we have to take any more crap over it. If you don't like the site, move on - although I hate to see anyone go I would prefer that to the constant slamming of the business choices that have been made.

 

[Kevin T]

Just a quick thought and I'll be offline most of the day.

The OP in the thread referenced did not tell the truth in his application. That is a requirement to help filter this site. I have banned a new member who lied and put a bogus phone number on his application. Same thing. That's why the OP is no longer a member. He was pointed to ebay by myself as well as others. Helpful advice was given to him. If I had known of a cutter under $750 I certainly would have directed him to it.

As far as the other 2 members and the post i deleted on that thread originally - you don't get to drop the f*bomb in the general forum. That's not why the other two got put in time out (no they are not banned). But when Fred or I delete or edit a post there is a reason for it. My big worry when NHB started was the bleed over of language into the main site. So yes, I will be a jerk about policing that if I have to be. Those members still have access to the site, but they can't post. The site structure is what it is and frankly I don't see why we have to take any more crap over it. If you don't like the site, move on - although I hate to see anyone go I would prefer that to the constant slamming of the business choices that have been made.

Totally agree.

 

[Jackpine]

ps Before you start pointing new people toward Ebay that want to enter the industry. You may want to consider what that experience may do when it goes bad. Did we not just have a thread about bootleg "Aurora Graphics" disks that were purchased that turned out to be crap? At least direct people, when they start out, to reputable suppliers that will be able to provide support. You know they're going to need it.

It is just a place to look for a plotter in the price he is wanting. I know of the circumstances and facts about that plotter that is for sale I mentioned. Is it bad to buy used equipment? How about repoed stuff.... So members here that haves had equipment for sale here and didn't sell it are morons for posting them on eBay? I am not defending eBay or any other avenue for purchases. If you read my post I also pointed him to a MM in Sign Warehouse and the service they offer also.
Here, how about this advice......find out everything on your own! Is that better. Pointing someone in a direction to find out MORE information is not a bad thing.
Everyone is responsible for themselves.

 

[Flame]

I can now look at it both ways. I started out a few years ago with a similiar budget, and was told I was crazy and couldn't get going for that. I saved up a bit, got some real equipment, and had a few people help me get going in life. I need a few harsh slaps, and I thank JDB for helping me NOT buy a "sun" plotter.

So I understand the mentality of getting into this part time, not knowing much about the business, just want some side cash.. etc. I can sympathize with this poster.

Jump forward to today. I spend thousands every month on just materials now, no longer buy vinyl by the foot, have a couple wide format printers and went from working out of the bedroom to a roomy shop (still could be bigger though.. lol). I learned how to design, learned how to run a business, and learned that lowballers SUCK. I started off as one, and now I dislike them. They undercut you, hurt the industry, and produce some rather horrid looking stuff..... but once, I WAS ONE OF THEM.

So it's tough for me (hey... sorry guys for the little personal life trip here). I know how the guy feels and where he's coming from, but I also know that I don't think he should keep pursueing it like he is. If I could save him a few steps by either helping him decide to quit, or jumping ahead past the newbie/undercutter/sticker slapper onner with windexer stage, I think it would both help him AND the rest of the sign businesses around him.

If you're going to do something, do it right, the first time. Keep to that, and you'll be golden. That is the point I was hoping to get across.

And I hope that doesn't sound too harsh, but I honestly think that's what would be best for everyone.

JMO...

 

[Kevin T]

ps Before you start pointing new people toward Ebay that want to enter the industry. You may want to consider what that experience may do when it goes bad. Did we not just have a thread about bootleg "Aurora Graphics" disks that were purchased that turned out to be crap? At least direct people, when they start out, to reputable suppliers that will be able to provide support. You know they're going to need it.

It is just a place to look for a plotter in the price he is wanting. I know of the circumstances and facts about that plotter that is for sale I mentioned. Is it bad to buy used equipment? How about repoed stuff.... So members here that haves had equipment for sale here and didn't sell it are morons for posting them on eBay? I am not defending eBay or any other avenue for purchases. If you read my post I also pointed him to a MM in Sign Warehouse and the service they offer also.
Here, how about this advice......find out everything on your own! Is that better. Pointing someone in a direction to find out MORE information is not a bad thing.
Everyone is responsible for themselves.

I didn't say it was bad to buy used equipment. I never called anyone a moron. I suggested caution when using Ebay to buy equipment for a new person looking to enter the business. I didn't point any fingers at anyone, I've used Ebay myself. But I've owned many machines and know what to look at and what to ask. Someone just starting out likely will not. Is that a better explanation? I'm a little mystified at the hostility. No one is insulting you or saying the information you offered was inaccurate. Slow down a bit before you burst a blood vessel or something. Holy cow!

 

[Kevin T]

I can now look at it both ways. I started out a few years ago with a similiar budget, and was told I was crazy and couldn't get going for that. I saved up a bit, got some real equipment, and had a few people help me get going in life. I need a few harsh slaps, and I thank JDB for helping me NOT buy a "sun" plotter.

So I understand the mentality of getting into this part time, not knowing much about the business, just want some side cash.. etc. I can sympathize with this poster.

Jump forward to today. I spend thousands every month on just materials now, no longer buy vinyl by the foot, have a couple wide format printers and went from working out of the bedroom to a roomy shop (still could be bigger though.. lol). I learned how to design, learned how to run a business, and learned that lowballers SUCK. I started off as one, and now I dislike them. They undercut you, hurt the industry, and produce some rather horrid looking stuff..... but once, I WAS ONE OF THEM.

So it's tough for me (hey... sorry guys for the little personal life trip here). I know how the guy feels and where he's coming from, but I also know that I don't think he should keep pursueing it like he is. If I could save him a few steps by either helping him decide to quit, or jumping ahead past the newbie/undercutter/sticker slapper onner with windexer stage, I think it would both help him AND the rest of the sign businesses around him.

If you're going to do something, do it right, the first time. Keep to that, and you'll be golden. That is the point I was hoping to get across.

And I hope that doesn't sound too harsh, but I honestly think that's what would be best for everyone.

JMO...

Obviously you had a purpose and a vision beyond what the gentleman in that particular post envisioned for his son. He stated it quite clearly. Unfortunately some people seem to be missing that or refuse to acknowledge it.

Congratulations to you and your dedication to succeed. I believe the advice you offered because of your background should have been taken more seriously by the OP and probably shouldn't have been so short changed by various posters who followed.

 

[signage]

What should be stated is if you have never operated a plotter or large format printer it could be a waste of your money buying off eBay.

How many times have we seen question on how to get this thing to work posts and later find out that it was purchased off eBay or a private individual the purchaser can not get it to work, and it is costing them more money and lost time. And we all know that time is money!

If you have no experience with this type of equipment you would be better off purchasing from a vendor, so that you get the training needed operate the equipment at its minimum.