Newbie Posts

[Sign_Boy]

I typically don't get involved in these discussions because they often get out of hand, however I feel the need to throw my .0002 in.

I agree with most of the posts in this thread so far and Flame I think your post was great.
I also remember when I first started out back in 99, I didn't have a clue I new nothing about signs other than you read them LOL.
Heck I still don't have a clue, I'm still learning as all of us are. I don't care if you've been at this for 1 week or 50 years you will always learn something new. Take Jill as an example, the other day she asked how she should save her files for her client. Did she get bashed? Nope, why not? Probably because she is a professional and not a hobbyist. I'm not quite sure how long she's been at this, but I bet it's been a while, yet she needed to learn something new to get the job done. "Not a dig at you Jill - only an example" So what's the difference between her asking a simple question* and some one else asking a simple question*?
* "simple to some but not everyone"

I think the answer to that would be tolerance or perhaps patients. That's JMO.
I have noticed that new posters "members" on here tend to get ripped to shreds, shoot look at my first post in that thread.
http://www.signs101.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=34934 I threw in the popcorn because I knew it was going to turn in to a side show. I think a lot of us know when this is going to happen history shows it. Is there any way to avoid this???
Probably not, let's face it us sign people are a different breed LOL.

Well enough of my rambling on, I'll just finish up by offering this suggestion to Fred & Stacy.

I'll admit I haven't looked at the new registration form in that much depth so for all I know this suggestion might exist already.

Suggestion for new registration form.

- Have some kind of test "Shovel's idea a while back" LOL It doesn't have to be all that hard. Simple questions would work.
The questions could be multiple choice, with radio buttons to click for the answers.
Here are a few examples:

1 - Which one of these is not a vinyl brand?
List of brands and one that is not

2- Simple question about Coroplast

Questions that someone that has been around signs or even took the time to try to learn something about signs would know.
You get the idea. Don't get me wrong I'm not trying to keep people out, I'm just thinking of a way to keep people in.

Also if possible here's another idea.
If the person fails the test their access would be limited to the newbie area. After 1 week they could retake the test if they pass they can become a full on member.
This might help weed out the so called bad apples.

I don't know it's just a thought, but what do I know.
Sorry, I know the suggestions should have bee posted in the Announcements, Suggestions and Feedback section. I just thought it fit with this topic.

 

[Billct2]

I also think onesmf made some good points and believe that it is best to ignore the post that annoy you.
Grafixemporium said

You guys make signs. It's pretty simple

REALLY? Damn I must be an idiot then.
Sunburst said

I agree, there are posts that are just stupid. Do you actually walk around telling stupid people that they are stupid. How about inexperienced people? Do you tell every inexperienced person you that you meet that they need to get a clue?

If someone walked into my shop, or met me at a party and asked these inane questions I would tell them the same thing the same way I say it herel And i know several guys that would be way more blunt than some here are. And that is not limited to this trade.
I wonder how many sites on other trades get such idiotic (and often arrogant) questions.
"Hi I want to buy my son set of plumbers tools so he can make a little money on the side until my little genius goes to college and learns a real career."
I mean if you know anything about the world of high school/college entrance time the kid doesn't have time to waste on something like this anyhow. He should be padding his applications with pertinent work. The whole thread was suspect anyhow.
I say refer them all to ebay and let them waste their time and money.

 

[Rick]

I think Fred has a direction for this place and hobbyist are not be part of that equation... this place can be either overly protective of the trade but at the same time very helpful. It would have been helpful for that poster to send him along to a better forum for his certain level, I'm sure the industry will survive another hobbyist when probably 10-20 more a week try and fail at it.

Hobbyist will always be around, what I think is more damaging to the industry is the sign shop in transition. When cut vinyl is not enough the transition to wraps with no experience, when wraps are not enough, the transition to interior signs, then exterior then electrical.... those transitions are usually earn while you learn on a higher end with established clients. Pricing is usually low and sometimes stay that way, quality can be very low , especially if they are asking the wrong person or vendor for suggestion.

I personally like watching newbies who "get it" and grow and making the smooth transitions. It's a train wreck when a person know just enough to screw it all up.

 

[Rodi]

Fred alluded to responsible high posters and I take some exception to that, because honestly, some have had much more negative posts to both peers and novices. To shout out the novices, even if its a dumb post, is unfair because they don't know a thing at that point. If it becomes a third or fourth post, then they become fair game, but would you want to be treated poorly by some pros in another field as you were trying to figure something out?

 

[R08]

I think Rodi's got a point there.
And I have been guilty of the same but I am trying to think first. Although I'm not a high poster (more of a poser)

 

[Rick]

I think most "responsible" high posters do not want to get too involved because the damage has already been done... when the pissing match starts, it's hard to stop it mid stream.

 

[vinylink0331]

Out of line!

You guys make signs. It's pretty simple. It's not brain surgery. And it's certainly not an exclusive club that requires 20 years of tenure to be accepted. You make signs. Ironically, some of you who talk the most trash aren't even that good at it!
Get off your soapboxes and high horses and join us back here on Earth. You guys make signs.

Honestly, I think this statement is a slap in the face to those of us who are in this business. To begin with being in this industry, as with any other business, it requires loads of time, patience, diligence, hard-work, research, organization, professionalism, and creativity. To down grade what we do as just making signs is quite a put down. There is much more to this business & to make a statement like that, shows you know nothing at all. Anyone can by the equipment, But not everyone can create a successful business out of it. So you are so upset about everyone else's comments, maybe u should edit your own more carefully. I personally took offense to what you said. I come on this forum to be able to share ideas & tips with others who are serious about this industry, not those that put it down. I personally paid my contribution to this site, & want to thank Fred Weiss for the opportunity to use a site like this.

 

[Fred Weiss]

As I already posted here, I think some improved courtesy would go a long way around here but there is a dynamic that happens which is beyond the ability of any set of rules or moderation to control. Let's examine what happened in this thread:

• The OP registered and was approved because he stated: Yes, I am, was or want to be in the sign making profession.
• He started a thread at 8:38 pm and in the next 15 minutes received about 20 helpful replies with a few neutral OT posts or non-harmful wisecracks thrown in. In one of his replies, he divulged in Post #24 that his interest was not in entering the profession of sign making. That this was, in fact, a case of daddy buying junior a summer job.
• That, predictably, changed the tone of replies a bit but was still helpful and civil. Kevin T's post #31 was blunt but still helpful and courteous.
• Post #33 saw the OP commence into insults and arrogance. At this point the thread had been ongoing for two hours with no rudeness appearing.
• The next few posts could be described as reactionary to the OPs post #33 and were less helpful but still polite.
• Then we get to tcrowder's post #40 in which he introduces disparaging remarks about those members who had posted up until that point. The thread began to deteriorate.
• Post #44 saw houseofgrafix jump in with more member insults and the introduction of gutter language.
• The balance of the thread is full of garbage and not worth recounting.

This thread demonstrates a common dynamic around here and brings to mind the quotation from Shakespeare's Julius Caesar ...

The evil that men do lives after them; the good is oft interred with their bones.

What we had was a couple of dozen well intentioned, courteous posts followed by an honest but blunt one followed by the OP taking insult and expressing various sentiments of entitlement, rudeness, and ingratitude; followed by other posts reacting to the OP reaction followed by posts from members who hold other members in low esteem.

It's a dynamic we've seen before and will likely see again from time to time. There are things currently under development which may help to reduce repeats but it will never eliminate them. I personally applaud Kevin T for the position he took in defending the "for professionals" aspect of Signs 101 and offer a two thumbs down opinion of the attitudes demonstrated by tcrowder and houseofgrafix.

Yes, it is true that the name Signs 101 causes confusion for some. Steps are being taken to make it more clear to newcomers not seeking to participate in sign making as a profession that this is not the place for them. Changing our name at this late date is not, however, an option worth considering.

 

[iSign]

This is another thread going wrong. The poster onesmf made some very true points and again someone has to boo-hoo the context of the message. What grafixemporium is also true and not threatening to anyone but gets slammed.

JEEPERS gee willickers, gimmee a gosh dang break Jackpine... regarding onesmf, you say "someone has to boo-hoo the context" WTF/ ...you must mean Fred then right, because he is the only one to have replied to the O.P. before you posted. Fred provided a very balanced and honest reply. Beyond reproach!

...then in regards to grafixemporiums overly dramatic soliloquy... you said "he get's SLAMMED??

*^#!@ HOLY MOTHER OF GOD... SLAMMED??


..yeah right. re-read it yourself, I ain't wasting time explaining myself. All the thin skinned pussys can get together and have me banned if they want, Im not about to start coddling people with kid gloves if they want to enter a professional forum of busy adult business people and throw tantrums about leaving for greener pastures. Seems like whiney BS to me, and believe me, I keep my mouth shut 9 out of 10 times I read BS (including the entire thread in question) ...but direct statements of "change for me or else I'm leaving" they will get a sarcastic good bye if I feel like it & bevets, jackpine or others can kiss my lily white okole if they want to hang the blame on me for this latest waste of bandwidth discussion!

 

[Rodi]

okole? never heard that one before, but its a long way to Hawaii to do what you said! Maybe worth it for a vacation though.

 

[Rick]

I'm now having a mental image of Dougs okole... by the way, is it all furry with a tattoo above it that says "Don't mess with my poi-poi"?

 

[jdb]

Anyone for a pu-pu platter?

 

[SignTech]

As I already posted here, I think some improved courtesy would go a long way around here but there is a dynamic that happens which is beyond the ability of any set of rules or moderation to control. Let's examine what happened in this thread:

• The OP registered and was approved because he stated: Yes, I am, was or want to be in the sign making profession.
• He started a thread at 8:38 pm and in the next 15 minutes received about 20 helpful replies with a few neutral OT posts or non-harmful wisecracks thrown in. In one of his replies, he divulged in Post #24 that his interest was not in entering the profession of sign making. That this was, in fact, a case of daddy buying junior a summer job.
• That, predictably, changed the tone of replies a bit but was still helpful and civil. Kevin T's post #31 was blunt but still helpful and courteous.
• Post #33 saw the OP commence into insults and arrogance. At this point the thread had been ongoing for two hours with no rudeness appearing.
• The next few posts could be described as reactionary to the OPs post #33 and were less helpful but still polite.
• Then we get to tcrowder's post #40 in which he introduces disparaging remarks about those members who had posted up until that point. The thread began to deteriorate.
• Post #44 saw houseofgrafix jump in with more member insults and the introduction of gutter language.
• The balance of the thread is full of garbage and not worth recounting.

This thread demonstrates a common dynamic around here and brings to mind the quotation from Shakespeare's Julius Caesar ...



What we had was a couple of dozen well intentioned, courteous posts followed by an honest but blunt one followed by the OP taking insult and expressing various sentiments of entitlement, rudeness, and ingratitude; followed by other posts reacting to the OP reaction followed by posts from members who hold other members in low esteem.

It's a dynamic we've seen before and will likely see again from time to time. There are things currently under development which may help to reduce repeats but it will never eliminate them. I personally applaud Kevin T for the position he took in defending the "for professionals" aspect of Signs 101 and offer a two thumbs down opinion of the attitudes demonstrated by tcrowder and houseofgrafix.

Yes, it is true that the name Signs 101 causes confusion for some. Steps are being taken to make it more clear to newcomers not seeking to participate in sign making as a profession that this is not the place for them. Changing our name at this late date is not, however, an option worth considering.

I thought post #29 read between the lines very well. But I'm biased lol ...

I'm not about to spend to much time and money divulging trade secrets and learning curve issues to someone that walks in with $750.00 bucks and says hey give me all your knowledge so I can get my kid a new toy for the summer so he can make stickers .......

Personally I/we have seen the substandard work and pricing low ballers popping up everywhere in our community with respect to sign making and it's a joke.

If Fred wants to raise the bar on Signs101 so it serves it's purpose to help those that are serious about the business, I'm all for it.

A high percentage of new comers are welcomed kindly. They are helped.

Why don't you create a thread about all the good that happens?

But when honesty is dished out, all of a sudden we owe them something?

We owe initial courtesy period and continued when earned. If people want to be a dick because they don't get what they want ........ then they should try options (no what I mean?).

I'll admit my first post was a ball busting response. I said; you mean "75,000"?

It was a joke, because the OP offer of $750.00 was a joke.

So I started off playful ....... then I said add at least one more zero to that start up cost, which is realistic.

We started with $10,000.00 initially. Looking back 4 years we could have invested about 5000.00 more. $750.00 is a joke and so was the OP.

Then he states his kid is Mr. straight A's being looked at by Navy scouts ..... and he was here because? Then he says ahh he won't even really be in graphic design probably in the future. So why are we wasting our time posting to this crap? Asking yourself that. Read between the lines people.

Fred ... don't get yourself too stressed over some of these responses. Do what you feel is right.

~M

 

[TheSnowman]

Anyone for a pu-pu platter?

I prefer the poo poo poo platter. Sometimes the traditional two poo's just isn't enough for one guy. At least not in a 24 hour period.

 

[Fred Weiss]

I have to agree that there's a lot of looking at what's wrong and not enough at what's right.

For example, there are about 20 new members a day being accepted here with about 3 or 4 a week being rejected. Better than 90% are finding Signs 101 through Google or other search engines. Yet with around 140 such inductions a week, how many end up being treated rudely? Maybe one out of 140 or less. How many are treated courteously? Almost all.

Now go back and examine what actually happened in a rude to a newbie thread and you will find that most were caused by the newbie not even understanding the nature of the group he had joined.

Uh hi ... I'm looking for the best, cheapest place to get a plotter and maybe some help figuring out how to work it cause the sign guy I been usin' charges too much. and it looks purty easy anyhow.

Much of the blame for this kind of new member rightfully sits at my door step. I hope to improve on reducing or eliminating such new members in the future.

 

[signage]

Fred I think you do a great job! I think what need to be done is a sticky for the newbies about using the search feature and or researching first then asking question, after an introduction in the newbie forums first. And I also agree that most of them do not get flamed first they are almost always welcomed by many of us!

 

[Jackpine]

iSign, I never blamed you or anyone else for anything. The guy asked about a cutter. I gave him suggestions. "QUOTE" There is a Graphtec CE3000Mk2 on eBay selling at $650.00. This is a very good cutter and will serve anyone well. The cutter comes with a stand and plugin software for Corel Draw and Adobe Illustrator. Sign Warehouse also sells cutter packages for upstart businesses. I have never bought hardware from Sign Warehouse but have dealt with Jerry Barrex their sales manager and found him and the company more than willing to supply the correct equipment. Do your homework and you can find something in your budget that will serve you well." End of quote. What is the problem with that suggestion?
I'm not asking anyone to change for any reason.
I have never questioned Fred or the way the forum is run. It is a forum that is, I believe in a growth and change spurt. I believe it will be even better than it is now.
Maybe the best thing is not to be involved in helping new members until it is known they are serious. Like it was 20 to 30 years ago. I always say to those that ask to also "do your homework". Research and ask questions. I take that most here are sincere and want to learn and improve. You are a student or a teacher all the time if one seeks to improve and grow.

 

[iSign]

iSign, I never blamed you or anyone else for anything.

Jackpine, we have a history of mutual respect & I have no desire to change that, but I challenge one of your statements, so I used your name in my post, but I also included a quote in hopes it would make it more clear exactly what I am taking issue with. Let me try again:

What grafixemporium is also true and not threatening to anyone but gets slammed.

At the time you posted, absolutely nobody else could possibly have been the target of that remark, except me... and my initial statement was "by-bye"

Not by any means something I would expect to be referred to as being "slammed" ...especially taking into account the poor victim, woe-is-me, drama of his post.

He replied with the insinuation that I should be banned...

still, after that, my telling him to "spare us the drama & make your point without threats to abandon us... god forbid" is once again not a "slam" by any stretch of the imagination.

I am direct... to a fault, but if I take issue with an individual, or a comment... I usually don't leave any doubt as to what, or whom I am challenging.

My advice to you... if you want to come back and say "I never blamed you or anyone else for anything" ...then don't try to pass negative judgements on others...

...on the other hand, if you DO want to pass negative judgement on others, like I often do, and consider that to have a valid place in a civil society, like I do...

...then name names, and quote quotes... and stand behind your words, don't hide behind them... or as That Girl says... "say what you mean, and mean what you say"

 

[Jackpine]

I was posting to the first 3 post. While I was typing you posted "bye bye".
My first post should be #4. That is the way it is...sorry for you taking it another way.
"we have a history of mutual respect & I have no desire to change that", nor do I.

 

[iSign]

nobody posted after graphixemporium except me, and you... and your's was 4 hours later... but whatever