• I want to thank all the members that have upgraded your accounts. I truly appreciate your support of the site monetarily. Supporting the site keeps this site up and running as a lot of work daily goes on behind the scenes. Click to Support Signs101 ...

Odd question for time & material

letterman7

letterman7

New Member
I do work for about a half dozen local country clubs gilding their trophy boards with winners' names every year. From time to time I'll either screw up a spelling which I'll cover, or they screw up a spelling which they pay for. If there is a misspelling, it's generally caught within the first couple of days in which the gold and size can be relatively easily removed as it hasn't hardened yet. But I have a couple clubs that are problem children. I had one club drop a board off last week to add a name and the 'oh yeah, we misspelled this name, please fix' - and this board is only updated every two years. It took me 4 hours to remove the old gild and size without damaging the finish (always a major pain since these boards are decades old usually). I don't even know how to charge for that and I've been doing this 30 years. It wasn't a lot of effort - basically letting paint thinner sit on the lettering long enough that it could be worked - and my outlay of materials was pennies. But it was the time.. I was doing other things while the board soaked, but I think if I charged them my regular in house rate per hour the club will scream and I won't hear from them again. Which, honestly, wouldn't be a loss as they get very little from me.
Thoughts?

Rick
 
Gino

Gino

Premium Subscriber
Ya know, I had quite a few clubs we used to do this same kinda work. When it was my mistake, I hadda eat it. When it was their mistake, we split it. I started upping my prices on them to the point, all but one has gone to different shops. Guess what, none of the other shops can gild, so they put gold vinyl down. For the cost different, they can make all the mistakes they want. It's easy to fix. As for your situation, I'd tell them you'll split the cost with them on this one, but you need to put a 10 day return policy on anything with gold on it..... even if the mistake was yours...... and raise your prices.
 
letterman7

letterman7

New Member
Ask yourself this: Is the money you make worth the BS you have to put up with to get it? In my area absolutely. The clubs I service make up a very large portion of my bottom line in the spring. This particular club has over 100 more plaques that haven't been updated in years, and they're making noises about updating everything. Word of mouth goes a long way in the country club community and its usually easy money. I don't want to cut a toe off because of an ingrown nail :)
 
letterman7

letterman7

New Member
I had quite a few clubs we used to do this same kinda work. When it was my mistake, I hadda eat it. When it was their mistake, we split it. I started upping my prices on them to the point, all but one has gone to different shops. Guess what, none of the other shops can gild, so they put gold vinyl down. For the cost different, they can make all the mistakes they want. It's easy to fix. As for your situation, I'd tell them you'll split the cost with them on this one, but you need to put a 10 day return policy on anything with gold on it..... even if the mistake was yours...... and raise your prices.



I agree Gino. If it's my mistake I eat it and make it right. If it's theirs I charge the removal and replacement. Never had An issue with any club complaining about that (and believe me, I charge plenty).
 
Last edited:
Scotchbrite

Scotchbrite

No comment
I don't know how you do your mark-up on pricing, but this is a scenario where I might consider billing it at what we call "breakeven". Basically just cover the hard costs and overhead with no markup. I also make sure to invoice the full price and then add a line item for a discount down to the breakeven price so they know you are giving them special pricing.

This is all assuming you want to keep them as a customer.
 
Modern Ink Signs

Modern Ink Signs

Premium Subscriber
Since I have nothing to go from except your description of the project…

Let’s say it takes 3 hours total. This is you setting the board up for removal, letting the chemical(s) set, cleanup and reletter. Of that 3 hours you only physically touch it for 1 hour.

Assuming you ship rate to be $100/hr. I’d charge $200 labor + materials


There is a BIG thing missing if you only look at it from a time and materials point of view. You are missing your KNOWLEDGE of what to do, how to do it and get it done right! You are doing something that very few know how to do, including this 30+ year sign vet!

Get paid!

Do you do proofs prior to production?
 
  • Agree
Reactions: 2B
letterman7

letterman7

New Member
Modern Ink Signs said:
Since I have nothing to go from except your description of the project…

Let’s say it takes 3 hours total. This is you setting the board up for removal, letting the chemical(s) set, cleanup and reletter. Of that 3 hours you only physically touch it for 1 hour.

Assuming you ship rate to be $100/hr. I’d charge $200 labor + materials


There is a BIG thing missing if you only look at it from a time and materials point of view. You are missing your KNOWLEDGE of what to do, how to do it and get it done right! You are doing something that very few know how to do, including this 30+ year sign vet!

Get paid!

Do you do proofs prior to production?
Click to expand...
Hi Ron. That's what I'm thinking - splitting the time/material. There are never any proofs for a job like this. Client sends me a list of names, I make the templates, go to the facility and gild on site. All I would be doing is returning that list for them to review. My thought is if they didn't catch it the first time, it's on them. And I do make a point every year to tell them to double and triple check their lists, but you know how that goes..
 
P

ProSignTN

New Member
As far as a job I would want to even fool with, no way. Cut them slack because they can't spell, no. But, country club connections can be a very good source of new business. Be firm, be fair, show them you are a professional and they will respect you, hence pay your price.
 
caribmike

caribmike

Retired with a Side Hustle
letterman7 said:
I do work for about a half dozen local country clubs gilding their trophy boards with winners' names every year. From time to time I'll either screw up a spelling which I'll cover, or they screw up a spelling which they pay for. If there is a misspelling, it's generally caught within the first couple of days in which the gold and size can be relatively easily removed as it hasn't hardened yet. But I have a couple clubs that are problem children. I had one club drop a board off last week to add a name and the 'oh yeah, we misspelled this name, please fix' - and this board is only updated every two years. It took me 4 hours to remove the old gild and size without damaging the finish (always a major pain since these boards are decades old usually). I don't even know how to charge for that and I've been doing this 30 years. It wasn't a lot of effort - basically letting paint thinner sit on the lettering long enough that it could be worked - and my outlay of materials was pennies. But it was the time.. I was doing other things while the board soaked, but I think if I charged them my regular in house rate per hour the club will scream and I won't hear from them again. Which, honestly, wouldn't be a loss as they get very little from me.
Thoughts?

Rick
Click to expand...
Don't you have the client "proof" the copy before you spend all that time working on the project? A simple proof sheet or proof email with the usual industry standard proof wording would easily transfer the liability for errors from you to them. As a commercial printer and sign shop, I wouldn't print anything unless the client signs off on it. I've seen situations where I knew something was spelled incorrectly but the client still signed off on it. But, its not my job to point out their mistakes, is it!
 
J

JWitkowski

New Member
caribmike said:
Don't you have the client "proof" the copy before you spend all that time working on the project? A simple proof sheet or proof email with the usual industry standard proof wording would easily transfer the liability for errors from you to them. As a commercial printer and sign shop, I wouldn't print anything unless the client signs off on it. I've seen situations where I knew something was spelled incorrectly but the client still signed off on it. But, its not my job to point out their mistakes, is it!
Click to expand...
If I see the customer's copy that is spelled incorrectly it certainly IS my job to point it out. And get the correction signed off. But maybe that's just me because I'm a spelling freak and don't want anything I put out to be incorrect.
 
Billct2

Billct2

Active Member
Since you were able to work on other things while babysitting the board I wouldn't charge 4 hours. maybe charge about the cost of the lettering for the removal and then charge the cost of the new lettering. And explain that it should have cost more but you appreciate their business and spend a little more time on the proofing and sign off with the client going forward.
 
Stacey K

Stacey K

I like making signs
I do banners for the school and I didn't realize when the gal sent me the names with the pictures she was simply guessing on the spelling. Good thing I had only printed a few of them...of which 2 were wrong. Since it is a large, on-going job, I reprinted at no cost. However, going forward I told them they need to make sure the names are spelled correctly. That first batch I had my friends daughter sit next to me and look up all the kids on FB or Instagram and we went through the rest of them to make sure they were right. Obviously I don't have time to double check them all on each batch so after batch 1 I made it clear they need to make sure the names are spelled correctly. Since - it's been good!
 
Boudica

Boudica

I'm here for Educational Purposes
Stacey K said:
I do banners for the school and I didn't realize when the gal sent me the names with the pictures she was simply guessing on the spelling. Good thing I had only printed a few of them...of which 2 were wrong. Since it is a large, on-going job, I reprinted at no cost. However, going forward I told them they need to make sure the names are spelled correctly. That first batch I had my friends daughter sit next to me and look up all the kids on FB or Instagram and we went through the rest of them to make sure they were right. Obviously I don't have time to double check them all on each batch so after batch 1 I made it clear they need to make sure the names are spelled correctly. Since - it's been good!
Click to expand...
Geeze, you'd think something coming from a SCHOOL would be spelled correctly. Oh wait...
 
Boudica

Boudica

I'm here for Educational Purposes
If I create the artwork, I send a proof for every revision until approved. If I made a mistake, and they don't catch it it's on them (technically). If they provide the artwork, and there's a mistake, it's on them. Now, if I happen to catch a mistake before going to print, I would 100% let them know and give them a chance to fix it.
 
C

CanuckSigns

Active Member
Scotchbrite said:
I don't know how you do your mark-up on pricing, but this is a scenario where I might consider billing it at what we call "breakeven". Basically just cover the hard costs and overhead with no markup. I also make sure to invoice the full price and then add a line item for a discount down to the breakeven price so they know you are giving them special pricing.

This is all assuming you want to keep them as a customer.
Click to expand...
Never tell your customer you will do something for "your cost" because it gives them ammunition next time to question your pricing, just tell them you will give them a one time deal.

I have a bunch of products that cost me pennies in materials that I sell for $20-30, if I told them I was giving it to them for cost and gave them a bill for $0.70 in material and $5 in labour, they would think I'm ripping them off next time I bill them $20 for it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top