Onyx 10 - PDF black text splitting across CMYK, B:47%

[bob_5793]

Hi,

PDF black text (measured as C:0 M:0 Y:0 B:100 in Acrobat pro), but when output through Onyx Production House v10 black is splitting as C:91 M:94 Y:96 B:47.

Is there not a feature in Onyx v10 to 'force black', I am aware of this issue from a long time ago on other outputting devices - I think Pitstop had to be used to change the black type in the PDF, and Quark's blacks used to split in a similar manner, surely Onyx v10 can handle 100% black text correctly.

Thanks

 

[SignMeUpGraphics]

I'd love to know the answer to this... I've worked on trying to resolve it on and off over the past 12 months but haven't figured it out yet.
Under a loupe it always comes up as a CMYK mix, and never pure K. Sometimes I want a true black rather than a rich one but can't see any option which makes it happen.

 

[bob_5793]

I assume you are using Onyx ? that seems to be at fault, at least as long as the Acrobat 'Outpreview' dialgue is reporting correctly (ie C0 M0 Y0 K100).

We have another RIP where this doesn't happen, and has a Force Black' option.

Having text as 'rich' black is not what you want !

Well lets see if we cant get to the bottom of it, please share what you have tried to resolve this issue.

Pitstop used to have a feature to resolve this issue on MS documents, and Quark blacks always split acros CMYK when PDF'd, black always printed as such
Could it be the way the black text is described by the application when writing the PDF, ie its a greyscale object maybe ?
Indesign has some prefs you need to set, quick Google brings up this:
http://thirdeyeprinting.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/rich-black-vs-text-black-tweaking.html

Is it the default black you find in the Apps colour palette that has some influence.

 

[J Hill Designs]

turn off color correction

 

[CES020]

You do know that 100K isn't going to give you a real black, black, right?

 

[AF]

Assign a spot black and have your rip replace it with 0-0-0-100 if it lacks a black preserve option. This way you don't have to disable color correction.

 

[P Wagner]

Hi,

PDF black text (measured as C:0 M:0 Y:0 B:100 in Acrobat pro), but when output through Onyx Production House v10 black is splitting as C:91 M:94 Y:96 B:47.

Is there not a feature in Onyx v10 to 'force black', I am aware of this issue from a long time ago on other outputting devices - I think Pitstop had to be used to change the black type in the PDF, and Quark's blacks used to split in a similar manner, surely Onyx v10 can handle 100% black text correctly.

Thanks

As has been previously stated, the RIP is re-interpreting the colors in the file (RGB or CMYK or spot etc) and performs a series of conversions, ultimately into the output color recipe (probably CMYK) that is defined in the media ICC profile that you are using.

If you do not want the RIP to reinterpret colors in the file, then many RIPs, including Onyx, allow the user to set-up filters or similar types of color replacement tools that will bypass the ICC-based workflow.

 

[J Hill Designs]

I know in flexi you can change 'text' object to not have any color correction, but still have correction etc for vector and raster objects. I (used to, before offloading my printer) do that when I had small text to print and didnt want any color-to-color calibration issues to come into play

 

[RyanFelty]

If it is a PDF i turn all profiles off and it makes it true to your design colors.

 

[bob_5793]

I've used 'colour correction' to change the black in a job to 0:0:0:100, and yes you could setup a filter, but you have to rely on the conversion to do exactly the same thing each time , if you changed anything (ie media or application black) it would'nt pick it and change it back to 0:0:0:100B. Not sure you could use it as a catch all.

You could set the black as a spot colour within the app and have the RIP pick it up and run it as 0:0:0:100, but as we mostly receive files with many many elements each with possibly their own black description - that would be a lot of extra work.
I guess you could preflight when you make a PDF to pick up certain blacks, but then you still have the task of having to go about changing those blacks.

'Colour Conversion' is turned off when making the PDF, the black in Acrobat is 100% black once the PDF is made.

There must be a better way for Onyx to handle text blacks ?, such as a 'Preserve Black' or 'Force Black' feature ...

 

[CES020]

I don't know if it's in V10, but in V11, you can go into the Job Editor and click on the color correction tab, Tools, then Color replacement. You can sample a color in the file, tell it to replace it, or have to change named colors to various values.

 

[scott pagan]

you can set the black to "icc pure hues" in onyx job editor. in job editor>printer and media tab>color management>change profiles>profiles> the small icons on far right open the ICC Pure Hues menu to select which colors you want to remain unmodified. for our iCut registration i want my 100% black to be black only, so i set my illustrator to display and output blacks accurately, then with my onyx pure hues 'black only' checked, any file with the 100% black data will output with black only, no CMYlclm underbase. save as part of your quick sets and it becomes a default for your RIPs

 

[bob_5793]

Thanks for that useful reply, that has resolved this particular issue.

Onyx has some great features !

'you can set the black to "icc pure hues" ' by:

To better describe the location:

in Onyx PreFlight>Color Managment>Change Profiles>Profiles>(CMYK or RGB) select the ICC Pure Hues icon to ensure pure hues of x color are rendered without any color correction.

There are two Black check boxes: Black/Grey or Black Only, I'll assume its the Black Only, checking the Black/Grey would negate any linearisation done at profiling.

I have also experienced profiling putting a few % cyan into 100% yellow, this feature will help stop that issue.

I initially checked 'pure hues' for Black only within Preflight on an processed job, submitting, and reprocessed - but reopening in preflight the black hadn't changed. By opening a Quickset and changing the 'Pure Hues', saving and applying to a new job - the Black text remained 100% black, sorted ... not sure why reprocessing an existing job doesn't apply this Pure Hues rule.

Found another thread - discussing a similar issue - if of interest.

I will test this further to ensure this gets applied to all black text (where I want it !), and post again if I find another issue with Black Text not outputting 100K.

 

[Bly]

But that still only gives you 100% K when a solid black usually needs 50 50 40 100 or something.
I just do a color replacement in Preflight.

 

[AF]

But that still only gives you 100% K when a solid black usually needs 50 50 40 100 or something.
I just do a color replacement in Preflight.

50 50 40 100 gives you 240% ink. If your ink limit is less than that the rip will reduce how much black is laid down. This will reduce the blackness. Depends on the media of course.

 

[bob_5793]

Thats assuming you want a rich black, for solid areas or where you want the black to be punchy - in which case yes you would want 50 50 50 100 or what ever combination you find works best on your media and without drying issues.

But if you want TEXT to be just 100% black, or say 100% yellow without any tint of cyan ... the Pure Hues function does it for me

 

[Hotspur]

Almost correct!

50 50 40 100 gives you 240% ink. If your ink limit is less than that the rip will reduce how much black is laid down. This will reduce the blackness. Depends on the media of course.

Remember that the ink restriction / ink limit will give you an overall maximum amount of ink that you cannot surpass.

Thus if you ask for 50 50 40 100 you are getting 50% of whatever the ink limit decides is the maximum, 40% of the ink limit, 100% of the ink limit etc etc - the blackness will not be reduced as it is not referring to the % of ink that existed before any limitation took place - just a proportion of whatever is arrived at after ink limiting and so is valid.