Onyx 12 Color Management

[ikarasu]

Good afternoon!

We received fly upgraded to onyx 12 and got a eye1. I just tried to make my own color profile... Went through the the wizard, printed all the swatches, scanned them in, etc. I didn't change anything in advanced - figured I'd play with them later.

I then tried to print some greys out (our printer hates greys) and they were completely wrong. As in pink and blue, and not even as close as with ICC profiling off wrong. I'm presuming I'm doing something wrong... So I was wondering if anyone had any tips?

When printing the swatches.. I'm presuming you print with ICC profile off? (Just reprinted with on, and I'm going to rescan just to be sure... But I doubt that's what I did wrong).

Besides that... I'm not too sure what else I can change. I did print the standard seat he's (900ish) instead of ultimate accuracy. But I wouldn't think they'd be this much off.

Any tips or tricks you guys can pass on? Thanks!

 

[Bly]

You pretty much just follow the directions.
After you read in all the swatches in the last step to create the icc profile - make sure you click the "build profile" button or it doesn't.

 

[Andy_warp]

If I remember correctly...you have to go in and "enable" your profile after building it. I did this same exact thing.
If memory serves it's in the Job preview area...set you color management to "custom"

 

[SignMeUpGraphics]

Also, you're better off using i1 Profiler to do the actual ICC creation.
Pause the profile creation in Onyx at that point, make the profile in i1 (2033 patches seems to be the sweet spot with plenty of grey patches) then import back into Onyx.
I can't remember why i1 is better, but I'm sure Mike's ears will prick up when he sees this thread.

 

[Pauly]

Good afternoon!

We received fly upgraded to onyx 12 and got a eye1. I just tried to make my own color profile... Went through the the wizard, printed all the swatches, scanned them in, etc. I didn't change anything in advanced - figured I'd play with them later.

I then tried to print some greys out (our printer hates greys) and they were completely wrong. As in pink and blue, and not even as close as with ICC profiling off wrong. I'm presuming I'm doing something wrong... So I was wondering if anyone had any tips?

When printing the swatches.. I'm presuming you print with ICC profile off? (Just reprinted with on, and I'm going to rescan just to be sure... But I doubt that's what I did wrong).

Besides that... I'm not too sure what else I can change. I did print the standard seat he's (900ish) instead of ultimate accuracy. But I wouldn't think they'd be this much off.

Any tips or tricks you guys can pass on? Thanks!

You can follow the "print read next" method though onyx and get "OK" profiles.
Onyx has very powerful tools. If you know what you're doing, you'll enjoy using them.

Ink restrictions - print and read the chart. You'll see the black diamond, and an arrow pointing down (advanced) click it and make sure the curves are smooth with no excessive spikes. if there is, read it again. if that does not work, then try printing another one.

Calibration - Same as ink restrictions, print and read. press advanced. click swatch measurement and make sure it's smooth. If not do it again or reprint target.

Ink limits - print and visually look for over inking or where the ink is not dry ect so you can limit that.

ICC profile - 944 patches is fine. make sure the patches are scrambled. Make sure when you read them there's no errors. E.g you've measured a red patch but it should be blue ect. You can either use the dropdown box and choose a preset or go edit and change the settings yourself.
Press build and there's your media profile.

I personally dislike the onyx ICC engine. I use basICColor print. But i've used i1 profiler before. Both IMO give better results than onyx.
If you want to use i1p to create the icc profile section, you just press next and finish. Close everything. Open i1p. go to the advance mode. then device selection go to CMYK printer. under it, the 2nd button should be Profiling, click it. Choose your patches ect measure. When you go Test Chart, under it go Save As. Save it as a TIFF. Go to onyx and open it. in job editor, use the media profile you just created. Where it says "all ICCs on" click the box and go to "all ICCs off" Print and measure though i1p.
Don't change the lighting. leave it at D50. go though your settings. Save ect.
Go back into media manager. into your media profile you created. Go to the ICC section (you may have to click though everything though to get there) Don't change anything. Once in the ICC section, go import and import the icc profile you just created. press finish.

Print test charts ect and evaluate your profiles.

Mind you, that's the simple way.
I recommend doing 1 profile though onyx and 1 though i1p and compare. If you go to media library and copy the profile (white icon not the folder) and rename it onyx and i1p. Now you'll have 2 media profiles. Edit one of them and just redo the ICC profile either though onyx or i1p (the one you didn't do) Import for i1p or new (the + sign) for an onyx profile.

good luck.

P.s it helps to pay someone to teach you.
I've just told you what you will find on the internet. Onyx has a youtube channel going though it all also. But it's still all basic.

 

[ikarasu]

I believe we need the upgrade.version to do CMYK profiling through i1, don't we?


I do have someone coming in to train a couple of us. But I prefer to dip my feet in the water before jumping in, so to say.

I did make sure non of the swatches were red - there was 2 that were, but no matter how many times I re-read it, it stayed the same color, and kept red... So I'm presuming it's just the printer.

I will look at them other settings when I get into work today, thanks!

I knew it wouldnt be a perfect profile the first time... But I didn't think I could make it worst ;p

[edit]
Just double checked everything and it looks ok. I'm going to go through the process again from start to beginning and compare results, see if maybe I did a miss-step somewhere!


One other note - For some reason The Profiler will not read correctly the first reading. I scan by row, and it'll skip a color, and everything will be read. I have to re-do the row, and then it's fine. It's always only the first time... If I purposely scan it so theres an extra color, and it gives a "Too many swatches" error, then re-scan.. it scans perfectly. I had to do that to every row, just so I Didn't have to keep redoing a swatch and re-calibrating the eye1. I'm going to try uninstalling the software/drivers and re-installing, because I have a feeling something is glitchy (Though I did get it to scan all the colors properly, so I don't think thats the issue I'm having)


[Edit 2]

So I just tested scanning a swatch I re-printed with "profiles on" (Just testing, I know you print the swatches with profiles off) And 75% of them were red... So the icc is making all the colors way, way off! Going to start for scratch later today when I get a moment. Time to go wrap an office door I've been putting off for a month!

Thanks again for all the help. I think I'll start from scratch, and play with the advanced settings.Well... at least open them up and see what they are, and double check everything this time.

 

[SignMeUpGraphics]

I believe we need the upgrade.version to do CMYK profiling through i1, don't we?

Yes, you need to be on the "Publish" level to get CMYK profiling. Standard will give you RGB only.

Upgrade to i1Publish Pro 2
It's a serial/firmware update only, no need to change any hardware.
We did it years ago when adding our CMYK printers after having only an RGB for 5 years.

 

[Bly]

Why bother. You can make perfectly good profiles easily in Onyx.

 

[ikarasu]

It's like $1500-2000 to upgrade. Our stuff isnt THAT color sensitive that it needs to be perfect... We're just tired of our greys being blue/pink, reds being orangish, etc. Figured it was worth the price not having to change every single file we have to get better colors. Maybe upgrading to publish will happen down the line... but for now the onyx engine should work ok enough for us. Most of our stuff is real estate signs, traffic signs, etc. Who knows though, once we get onyx profile up and running... maybe I can convince them into upgrading to publish. I didnt have time to play with it on Friday, hopefully monday... I believe our "Trainer" is coming in next week, so I'd like to try to get a decent profile setup before he comes in! But at least now I know the "basics" of it.

 

[printhog]

Why bother with any of this if a $1500 upgrade isn't worth it to you? Over a year that's just $120 a month.. or two posters getting returned for bad color. If your business is digital printing, you need to have accurate color to be competitive. I don't understand why businesses in this trade skip upgrades of the measurement device.. SMH

its only a freaking sign!

 

[Bly]

I've never had to re do a job due to wrong colour and I've used Onyx created profiles for many years now.
But do it another way if you feel it's somehow better.

 

[SignMeUpGraphics]

It's like $1500-2000 to upgrade. Our stuff isnt THAT color sensitive that it needs to be perfect... We're just tired of our greys being blue/pink, reds being orangish, etc. Figured it was worth the price not having to change every single file we have to get better colors. Maybe upgrading to publish will happen down the line... but for now the onyx engine should work ok enough for us. Most of our stuff is real estate signs, traffic signs, etc. Who knows though, once we get onyx profile up and running... maybe I can convince them into upgrading to publish. I didnt have time to play with it on Friday, hopefully monday... I believe our "Trainer" is coming in next week, so I'd like to try to get a decent profile setup before he comes in! But at least now I know the "basics" of it.

This is the upgrade we used back in 2012 to get Publish version:
X-Rite i1Publish Software (Upgrade A) EOPROF-UPGA B&H Photo
Quite a bit less than you've been quoted. I would confirm with X-Rite that it's the correct path for your device just to be sure.

 

[Pauly]

I believe we need the upgrade.version to do CMYK profiling through i1, don't we?


I do have someone coming in to train a couple of us. But I prefer to dip my feet in the water before jumping in, so to say.

I did make sure non of the swatches were red - there was 2 that were, but no matter how many times I re-read it, it stayed the same color, and kept red... So I'm presuming it's just the printer.

I will look at them other settings when I get into work today, thanks!

I knew it wouldnt be a perfect profile the first time... But I didn't think I could make it worst ;p

[edit]
Just double checked everything and it looks ok. I'm going to go through the process again from start to beginning and compare results, see if maybe I did a miss-step somewhere!


One other note - For some reason The Profiler will not read correctly the first reading. I scan by row, and it'll skip a color, and everything will be read. I have to re-do the row, and then it's fine. It's always only the first time... If I purposely scan it so theres an extra color, and it gives a "Too many swatches" error, then re-scan.. it scans perfectly. I had to do that to every row, just so I Didn't have to keep redoing a swatch and re-calibrating the eye1. I'm going to try uninstalling the software/drivers and re-installing, because I have a feeling something is glitchy (Though I did get it to scan all the colors properly, so I don't think thats the issue I'm having)

If it keeps coming up as Red (error) It's either the printer is printing the colour way off target or the printed patch is visibly contaminated. I.e fingerprint.

So I just tested scanning a swatch I re-printed with "profiles on" (Just testing, I know you print the swatches with profiles off) And 75% of them were red... So the icc is making all the colors way, way off! Going to start for scratch later today when I get a moment. Time to go wrap an office door I've been putting off for a month!

Not sure why you even did that, it's not actually going to tell you anything.

It's like $1500-2000 to upgrade. Our stuff isnt THAT color sensitive that it needs to be perfect... We're just tired of our greys being blue/pink, reds being orangish, etc. Figured it was worth the price not having to change every single file we have to get better colors. Maybe upgrading to publish will happen down the line... but for now the onyx engine should work ok enough for us. Most of our stuff is real estate signs, traffic signs, etc. Who knows though, once we get onyx profile up and running... maybe I can convince them into upgrading to publish. I didnt have time to play with it on Friday, hopefully monday... I believe our "Trainer" is coming in next week, so I'd like to try to get a decent profile setup before he comes in! But at least now I know the "basics" of it.

I would have assumed if your a printer/print shop. purchasing the public version to output CMYK profiles would be the one to pick.

Why bother. You can make perfectly good profiles easily in Onyx.

They're OK. Could be better. I found onyx can struggle with reds a lot.

 

[ikarasu]

Why bother with any of this if a $1500 upgrade isn't worth it to you? Over a year that's just $120 a month.. or two posters getting returned for bad color. If your business is digital printing, you need to have accurate color to be competitive. I don't understand why businesses in this trade skip upgrades of the measurement device.. SMH

its only a freaking sign!

It's not that it isn't worth it to me. If I needed the $1500 upgrade in order to get accurate colors, I would talk them into getting it. But many people say onyx color management is great. Many also say it isn't... But why pay $1500 for an upgrade, if it's not needed? That's just throwing profit away, when onyx color management should be suitable enough.

We're not making starbucks signs here. Right now we get the colors so close no one can tell the difference - We're just looking for a way to do that more efficiently. We just spent almost 5K On an onyx upgrade + The device, not wanting to spend another $1500 shouldn't be unreasonable

That said, one of the main reasons we spent the money is to get decent colors. It's not like we'd throw 5K down the drain and do it half assed. If we NEED to, we'd spend more money. However our sales rep, and research, has shown that for us, onyx color engine should be more than acceptable.

 

[ikarasu]

If it keeps coming up as Red (error) It's either the printer is printing the colour way off target or the printed patch is visibly contaminated. I.e fingerprint.
.

The whole row comes up red the first time I scan it. It's always off by 1 swatch. at first I thought it was me just not scanning it properly... But It does it for EVERY single row (I'm talking 100+ rows). And the second scan is always perfect. I found if I just scan half the row, it'll ask me to re-scan, then that re-scan it scans perfectly. Using the method of scanning half the row so it throws the error, then re-scanning the row results in a perfect scan. I believe I had 2 red swatches at the end, and them werent fixable by re-scans. I'm presuming it's some sort of driver issue, since I can easily reproduce it and found a "fix", albeit and annoying one.


[Edit] Also, I asked for the CMYK one, because I thought thats what we needed. The sales rep told the owner of the company that onyx has its own profile engine, so we did not need the CMYK one, and could save money. So the whole situation with upgrading is out of my hands, unless they find onyx's engine unacceptable.

 

[ikarasu]

This is the upgrade we used back in 2012 to get Publish version:
X-Rite i1Publish Software (Upgrade A) EOPROF-UPGA B&H Photo
Quite a bit less than you've been quoted. I would confirm with X-Rite that it's the correct path for your device just to be sure.

I guess since it's a digital upgrade, we could buy it from anywhere... But we're in Canada. After the Exchange rate, thats' about $975-1000 after currency exchange. To buy it in Canada, It's around $1700 + tax list price. I'm sure our vendor could get it for us cheaper, but that's where my $1500-2000 estimate came from... Sadly even though We're huge trade partners, the markup on goods in Canada is ridiculous. Even after the exchange... we're paying about $400 USD more, for a serial number that doesn't even need shipping!

 

[SignMeUpGraphics]

Oh I know what it feels like.. Australia is worse than Canada at all of those.
It's cheaper to fly to the USA and buy Adobe CS Suite and fly back than it is to buy it locally.
Madness!

 

[printhog]

Ikarasu... I've found that onyx versions almost religiously need the high end updates and upgrades on devices for color management. They seem keen on latest firmware and the motion control you're mentioning on swatch sample selection may be the device driver being incompatible. I wouldn't trust any result of the device and software if it can't start the swatch sampling correctly. You really don't know what data it's grabbing or where it's being mapped.

Maybe find someone with another device and try that to see what it is. Could be out of spec or old driver, firmware, or com issues. I gave up on onyx when they couldn't fix an issue with my device. It just stalled halfway thru translucent sampling. Other times it wasn't seen. Real annoying.

I agree on using third party ICC generation and they are very editable and more compatible across apps.

its only a freaking sign!

 

[Bly]

Due to some quirk form me upgrading through the years from Postershop 7 to Thrive 12.1 I have the option to generate profiles using either the Onyx or Gretagmacbeth engines.
To be honest I can't tell the difference. Reds are fine on our HP25500 or Arizona.
Mind you I'm not doing proofing or high end photography but still.. sometimes I think some people overthink the whole colour management thing.

 

[Pauly]

The whole row comes up red the first time I scan it. It's always off by 1 swatch. at first I thought it was me just not scanning it properly... But It does it for EVERY single row (I'm talking 100+ rows). And the second scan is always perfect. I found if I just scan half the row, it'll ask me to re-scan, then that re-scan it scans perfectly. Using the method of scanning half the row so it throws the error, then re-scanning the row results in a perfect scan. I believe I had 2 red swatches at the end, and them werent fixable by re-scans. I'm presuming it's some sort of driver issue, since I can easily reproduce it and found a "fix", albeit and annoying one.


[Edit] Also, I asked for the CMYK one, because I thought thats what we needed. The sales rep told the owner of the company that onyx has its own profile engine, so we did not need the CMYK one, and could save money. So the whole situation with upgrading is out of my hands, unless they find onyx's engine unacceptable.

Not sure what's happening with yours. I use barbieri measuring devices. Check firmware with them rite software. Or check measuring device settings in onyx media manager
Maybe something in the settings inside onyx is doing it.

I see what the sales reps did. I understand too.
Sometimes having the extra software helps. One might do better colour than the other and the other may have better blacks generation than the other.
See what you can get with onyx engine. If you just want good black and white, onyx can do it for you.

Ikarasu... I've found that onyx versions almost religiously need the high end updates and upgrades on devices for color management. They seem keen on latest firmware and the motion control you're mentioning on swatch sample selection may be the device driver being incompatible. I wouldn't trust any result of the device and software if it can't start the swatch sampling correctly. You really don't know what data it's grabbing or where it's being mapped.

Maybe find someone with another device and try that to see what it is. Could be out of spec or old driver, firmware, or com issues. I gave up on onyx when they couldn't fix an issue with my device. It just stalled halfway thru translucent sampling. Other times it wasn't seen. Real annoying.

I agree on using third party ICC generation and they are very editable and more compatible across apps.

its only a freaking sign!

What device where you using?
Signs? I don't print those haha.

Due to some quirk form me upgrading through the years from Postershop 7 to Thrive 12.1 I have the option to generate profiles using either the Onyx or Gretagmacbeth engines.
To be honest I can't tell the difference. Reds are fine on our HP25500 or Arizona.
Mind you I'm not doing proofing or high end photography but still.. sometimes I think some people overthink the whole colour management thing.

I always wondered how the internal gretagmacbeth engine works.
If you ever feel like testing out a i1p profile. Pm or email me.

most clients don't need 100% accurate colour. High end fine art photographers are a different story though. I do a lot of that work.