Onyx Color issues

[michsanford]

Hi everyone,
I am running Onyx 11. I have issues when I import a file that is CMYK 20 20 20 100 (as created in illustrator), but when opened in Onyx, it is nowhere close.
All of my profiles match the ones in illustrator...I just can't figure it out.

Thanks

 

[dypinc]

Before or after color management is applied?

 

[Dan360]

Is this in the preview window in Onyx or when it's actually printed? You can't trust the previews in Onyx.

I use 40/30/30/100 for rich black, haven't noticed anything strange.

 

[Andy_warp]

Input profiles are different than device or media profiles. Even in a fully color managed and profiled icc workflow, those numbers will not be the same.
The reason being: your media profile is trying to interpret that Illustrator build to your color gamut.

That is what rips do...they find the closest "match" to a known measured color with your printing condition. (ie: ink/resolution/substrate/colorimetric data)
Your "printing condition" is your media profile.

This is exactly why my shop does not accept cmyk builds to "hit"
Which brand of cyan ink? On which stock?
There is no physical reference.

In dye sub (our print method) the gamut is fairly small, and the density ramps of cmy and k are kind of weird.

If I was to print Pantone Cyan Coated...the build won't just be a value of cyan...there may be some magenta and definitely yellow.
through my print condition 100% cyan will be like royal blue. My printer achieves a "brighter" appearance by spacing tiny dots further away from each other.
I can;t make a color "brighter" by adding more ink...it will just get closer to a darker blue.

That's why in digital printing it is called a "simulation" of pantone colors. There are only maybe 15% of the coated set that are in my gamut.
The rest are an approximation.

What you are saying is like "my car won't start on this fuel"
Well there are different types of fuel, like say, firewood...or steam...
We know those won't run a car, even though they are forms of fuel.

The only "builds" that should have any relevance to you are the device cmyk builds from onyx.
Once you get some Pantone color custom matched, you log them. (we write them on a sheet tacked to the wall)

The beauty of this is that now if a customer calls out a Pantone color, and you have matched it by eye or device, you know the build and can input it right at the source with no translations happening.
Where working with builds becomes an issue is what you are describing right now.
There is no chance of an input profile (sRGB/SWOP/GRACOL...yadda yadda yadda)altering the color with color management, because you are hijacking that color at the rip and correcting it.
Your color will be consistent EVERY time...as long as you use the same media profile...equipment...and substrate.

-To illustrate this you could create a rectangle in illustrator. Assign it a spot (do not convert to process...leave as a spot color) like PMS 368C.
Now rip it and write down the build from Onyx's translation.

If you assign that same cmyk build as a color in illustrator, and re rip it; they won't match.

This is why we urge customers to use Pantone colors. We can talk apples to apples.

 

[Andy_warp]

I just can't figure it out

Don't be so hard on yourself, these are pretty difficult principles!
I learned about all I know from this site...and several like it.

Stick with it, and get a spectrophotometer to build your own profiles. I'm guessing you are using canned profiles now.
I did that for a few years....I will never look back. A custom profile will map the colors SO much closer than a generic one.

 

[Rydaddy]

do you have 'profiles on' or 'profiles off'? You want profiles off to do what you're attempting. But overall you will want to print with 'profiles on.' Thus the conundrum...

 

[dypinc]

If he wants to output that color at 20 20 20 100 he can pick that color and replace it with the color replace tool. Profiles can be on and all other colors will be color managed.

 

[Andy_warp]

Those are all nice round numbers for a rich black! I wish I could have hip shotted it, and had it be nice and neutral down to zero!

We actually use the translated cmyk build from r-0/g-0/b-0 sent as a named spot color.
I prefer sending named spot colors, as opposed to the "color replace" tool...less chance of error.

 

[printhog]

from onyx export your media output profile for use in Illustrator. Then use it as the proofing profile and output profile with relative intent on. you should see a color more accurately represented and mapped but ONLY for the media you pick and AS your printer will print.

You will not see a tight match as your printer likely has different ink gamut, plus ink limits, linearizations and a final output profile skewing the color to meet the desired profile target dataset. (profiles are built based on RGB spectral data for the colors in the test target). CMYK inks are not standardized, and so there is a great many variations between ink gamuts at the final mix.

best color callouts are CIE L*a*b as that's the core of all color conversion tools and rips and has the full ability of human vision represented. Pantone is an analog color system that should die. (honestly. and be buried. or set afire on a viking boat.) PMS has no digital reference. its a combo of 14 colorants from 1960's that none of our machines use to print (see the tiny recipe below the colors, that's the formula to mix the PMS choice for offset spot color printing). PMS iust an expensive fanbook that needs annual replacement and makes a digital printer's life hell.

call out your colors in L*a*b and you can use any of a bunch of cheap color matching/reading tools to get the spectral values. I use a $59 colormuse. dead on color callouts and checks.

 

[dypinc]

If profiles are on for that color there is not much chance your going to get a device color of 100K that way.. Might work for your printer and media but if one is using Latex for example you want a device color of 100K only. There printer you may want a 20 20 20 100 build for example. Ways of getting that are Pure Primaries or what ever your RIP calls it providing the file is built correctly and input profile in RIP matches file, or replacement color setting device output color, named spot color in library set to device output color.

I get a lot of file in from clients to print that have black all over the place. Some set to overprint which has to be change in Pitstop depending what it is overprinting. It is just easier for me to drop the file into the RIP and pick out what I want to output at 100K and replace it to that.

 

[dypinc]

Lately I am finding for critical high gamut Pantone colors it is just easier to find the CMYK device colors CM and the Pantone libraries assigned in replace color and then print a color chart based on various mixes of the device color. Amazing how close I can get that way.

 

[Rydaddy]

sorry. yes. 100% correct

 

[Andy_warp]

Lately I am finding for critical high gamut Pantone colors it is just easier to find the CMYK device colors CM and the Pantone libraries assigned in replace color and then print a color chart based on various mixes of the device color. Amazing how close I can get that way.

No better way! I love the color books the new rips have!
I run Caldera and miss the Onyx version. (I can't generate my grid with the HSL settings)
In the end...it's all about those device builds. I can't stand softproofing. Emulating ink on a monitor is pointless for our market.
When we are proofing, it's as much about image resolution as color, which a monitor won't really show.

As far as Pantones go...it's maybe an easier color language for clients than full on measured L.a.b. values.
Yeah fandecks are a pain, but refusing the system is like refusing Adobe. It's industry standard.
It is still an interpretive thing for a digital printer, and not always perfect, but it is universal.
I have to load that friggin extended library every time I update my Illustrator!

I can't go with just 100% K typically. Sometimes I can get away with it, but for fills, it does look charcoal next to my rich black build.

I don't want Pantones to die, because they spare me from having to match to fruits or vegetables...which makes me want to jump off a bridge!

"Can you make the orange more orangey?"
"That red should be more tomato-y"

Pantones save me a slew of time, and my customers know what to expect.

 

[Pauly]

Is this in the preview window in Onyx or when it's actually printed? You can't trust the previews in Onyx.

I use 40/30/30/100 for rich black, haven't noticed anything strange.

Not if you've got a good profile. Onyx previews are colour managed.
Canned profiles will come up in Onyx the way it should print but not how it'll print on the printer as it's not built on the printer and there will be differences.

 

[Andy_warp]

call out your colors in L*a*b and you can use any of a bunch of cheap color matching/reading tools to get the spectral values. I use a $59 colormuse. dead on color callouts and checks

What if my ink and profile gamut can't produce the spectral value?

I run into this all of the time. Dye sub printing can't hit the gamut that an epson photo printer can.
A client will sent me a fine art strike off in a gamut my ink is no where near, and can't understand why some colors aren't as dense.

I've had to print a 30' tall x 200' long wall of nearly solid PMS 485C.
It surely wasn't the same measured lab value from Pantone...but it was a WHOLE lot of bright ass red.
My client loved it and won best booth in show.

Another reason why Pantone simulations help me.

 

[bdw99]

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