Opening a sign shop

[Dinojpforlife]

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[Kottwitz-Graphics]

Yeah, that non compete is pretty much bogus. Check with an attorney in your state, but they pretty much are trying to take away your ability to earn a living in your chosen profession. Now if you went in not knowing anything and they trained you, maybe, but trying to get you to sign with prior knowledge, especially several years after starting, is bull s%@&.

 

[Solventinkjet]

Don't sign the non-compete but as stated above, even if you do it isn't enforceable in most cases. It sounds like you have the skills and know how to do it. Might as well try it out.

 

[Dinojpforlife]

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[T_K]

I would push back on the non-compete for some compensation. If you truly are that valuable to the business, they either need to compensate you adequately (and thus make it worth your while to sign a non-compete) or deal with the fact that you could leave because they're not actually valuing you as an employee. You're not a new hire that they're trying to cover the training costs of by locking you into this job. There are likely no real trade secrets you'd possess that are unique to that employer that they need to protect. So the only real reason to have you sign a non-compete is that they don't want to lose your skill set and face you in the bidding wars. That's just plain coercion.

 

[StarSign]

So where will your customers come from? Sounds like you would be more of a middle man. I order the sign from you, you order it from someone else and sell it to me. Would you order the sign complete from your sources or would you get the components and then assemble? Are you zoned to run the business out of your home, will customers go to your home. Do you have enough money to support yourself if things start out slow. My guess is they want the non compete because you are whats keeping the work flowing? Have you asked for a raise? would they be willing to let you put some of your skin in the game?

 

[Dinojpforlife]

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[equippaint]

Yeah, that non compete is pretty much bogus. Check with an attorney in your state, but they pretty much are trying to take away your ability to earn a living in your chosen profession. Now if you went in not knowing anything and they trained you, maybe, but trying to get you to sign with prior knowledge, especially several years after starting, is bull s%@&.

Not totally true. Only California has ruled them illegal. In Florida, the statute specifically states that the court may not take any financial hardships into account. The industry I worked in went that route and I have many friends that have been dragged through court over it in Florida. Be very careful. Everyone thinks that they are difficult to enforce but I can assure you that they are not. A good company will get an emergency injunction on you and you will sit on the sidelines until you go to court. By then, the time will have passed. They can collect damages too and drag whoever hired you into the mess as well in some states.
I refused to sign one and got fired over it which is why I work for myself now. I consulted with an attorney before this and my wife recently went through it but her employer backed off of it.

 

[equippaint]

-Customers come from me advertising myself...door to door sales...website..networking...community events...I have a lot of specialized vinyl application avenues I want to peruse...I have quite a laundry list of sales tactics to try and most of the time it is a numbers game.. As far as a middle man...there are local suppliers that offer anything you need to garage sign shops at wholesale rates. So even thought I am a middle man I am still able to profit while pricing at market rates. I can order the basics and assemble myself...even order plotted vinyl and I can weed tape myself is how bare bone my options consist of. My zone for my home to work is fine in the town I work in....I would not encourage clients to come to my home, I would go to them or coffee shops...my town really appreciates local business and understands. My wife is willing to float us, but I am also a uber driver. My goal would be to get one month ahead of schedule and if I did not have enough to pay my share of bills I would uber nights to keep us afloat. A raise is not available, I asked.

To be brutally honest, I think that you are overestimating yourself and underestimating the difficulty in getting business, producing the work, financing the materials etc etc etc. You will soon find that knowing how to do the work is not near as important as knowing how to run a business, manage workflow, pay all of your bills and get sales. This is why you don't respect who you work for and have essentially said they don't know anything about anything except for sales. It is not easy, it isn't like you hit the lotto, can take endless vacations whenever you want. Truth is, especially when starting out (and even years after), you wont make squat, you will put in more hours than you ever have in your life, the stress will keep you up at night and all those things that your bosses said in the past that annoyed you will all start to make more sense.
This wasnt meant to be discouraging but you need to take off your goggles and come back to reality if you want to do this on your own.

 

[ikarasu]

I'm in the same situation. I started on the floor... now I'm the onlyone who runs the flatbed, laminator, roll to roll, cutter... etc. No one knows how to color match, operate the specto... do any profiling, etc. Theres about 20 things in my daily activities that no one else in the building can do. They wont hire anyone else, no one there is capable of cross training... and the pay isn't great, considering all the stuff I do.

Still a great company to work for, and I love it. I bought my own printer/cutter/laminator... I've made a couple grand off it, not even trying... I do believe if I quit my job, and went at it full time I could make my salary within a year easily.

But from finding customers, to doing proofs/designing... to weeding through all the people who expect stuff for 1/2 the price of a "real sign shop", to doing all the other work... Theres not MUCH proffit in it. Then you have to learn how to do all your taxes, etc.

Owning a shop isn't a simple task... Being a 1 man shop is even harder. I think you can make your salary easy, but you'll be so overwhelmed once you get the amount of work needed to make your salary, that you'll need a second person to help out.... which will then bring you down a big chunk. Then your business will double... and youll make more than your salary again... but guess what? You'll be so busy you need to hire yet another person.

It sounds easy, but it's a lot of hard work. If you can afford the risk of not making a proffit for awhile... as in months, to years... And you're willing to sacrifice your personal life, and a lot of family time to get your business established, then go for it. I didn't realize how time consuming it would be... Luckly I purchased my equipment as a hobby / for fun, it's a good way to make some side cash while continuing to earn a salary doing my normal duties at work.

The owners encourage it, heck.. half of my income from my printers have been from them outsourcing to me. If your bosses want you to sign a non compete, and don't want to give you a raise, and you feel like you're being underpaid... Look for another job. Refuse to sign a non compete... if youre as important as they say, they wont fire you. Live on a poverty wage, and put all your cash in a bank until you have a decent enough stash that will keep you and your family afloat for at least a year. Try out your idea, and if you don't like it / don't succeed... You'll have enough cash until you can find a new job.

[Edit] I'd also like to point out we have 2 owners. 1 Who majored in Financing... and the other who knows everything about the sign business. They complement eachother... And I think if one of them tried to run the business by themselves, our 30+ year shop would go out of business within a year. A company has many people who specialize in different fields... check your biggest nearest city's craigslist for sign shop. I know ours has 4-5 new sign shops trying to sell the whole shop/all equipment every single month. People think it's easy and invest so much time / effort into it, then they just want to get out of the business because they realize it's not.

 

[Johnny Best]

If your self-motivated and want to be on your own, go for it. Quit overthinking it. I never liked working for someone else and not making enough money. You work for someone now who has you doing everything and not getting a raise and now want you to sign a non compete. Get out before the chain rubs all the skin off your ankle and start your own business.
Subcontract yourself to the company you work for now after you leave, since they won't have anyone to do the stuff you do now.
If you don't do it now you will regret it later.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

If the business is growing and you're that busy there's some problem somewhere that they can't afford to hire someone else or they can't afford to pay you more. Red flag somewhere. Go out on your own. See if you can make a go at it. What's the most you can lose?

 

[bob]

Unless your employer offers you actual compensation for signing a non-compete agreement then it's meaningless. Note that 'you get to keep your job' is not compensation.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Like with everything, even though there may be something that says "contracts restraining business" are no bueno in a given jurisdiction, there usually are loop holes.

I do believe in Alabama (where the OP is), these contracts have been enforcible if they meet the following:

1. Employer has protected interest
2. The restriction has to be reasonably related to said interest
3. Restriction is reasonable as to time and place
4. It doesn't impose undue hardship on the employee

Similar to TN which is:

1. Consideration given for agreement
2. Danger on employer without an agreement
3. Hardship on the employee created with such an agreement
4. Public interest
5. Scope of Restriction (including):
1. Location Covered
2. Time Period of Restriction
3. Job Description

No explicit mention of compensation anywhere that I have found. This isn't one of those contracts to where you get a "signing bonus".

Bare in mind, contracts like this can be modified by a judge if found to be mildly unreasonable (blue penciling).

Now granted, this is in my non-legal opinion, so take it for what it's worth.

 

[DZineGraphX]

I started in a sign shop about 20 years ago after going to school for graphic design - it was a placement while in college then turned out to be a full time job. After 3 years working there i bought a cutter - then not long after bought a 30 inch versacamm and ended up leaving the company with the painter there and doing things on my own. The painter was there to do the painting on signs or what ever was needed - we did alot of billboard signs, he could airbrush - always did my "thing" out of the home. Did that for 7-8 years in my home town before moving to a larger city 8 years ago. Was i making a killing no but at the same time i was living.

Moved to the larger city 8 years ago - for a few reasons - a tech was 30-45 minutes away if something went wrong with my versacamm - rather then 8 hours away in my home town. I dont have to stock alot of materials - if order by 3:00 its here the next morning. Certainly the new city works better for business - so many larger centers within an hours drive so the work potential was there. Plus working from home i was there when the kids were small while the girlfriend worked and someone was always home when they got home from school etc.

After 8 years of doing my own thing i got a job in sept and started working for a sign/print company. The company has 13 locations throughout the area - 1 major graphics shop where i work has a flat bed, cnc machine, a roland printer, 2 epson large formats , a laminator and a flat bed laminiating table. Theres another graphics location that has a flat bed, roland printer and a laminator. Theres 3 of us in the large format department pumping out the orders while the graphic artist up front does the designing and getting the artwork print ready. The brought me in to do the production but also go do site check for upcoming work and the installs on what ever those jobs require.

The nice thing about working for them is i get the benefits, i get the paid vacations, and at 4:00 when my shift ends i can go home and not worry about it - and i will have a constant pay check every 2 weeks. Sure it might take 1/2 hour to get to work some mornings or an hour to get to some locations but im getting paid whether im in the car or installing signs or graphics. And when i started there was talk of a no competition signing - but really i discussed it with the owner and it may actually benefit the company if your doing things on your own. If i have a personal client who wants 100 double sided coroplast lawn signs im not set up for that. And in the past i would sub those out to a larger company - email the artwork - pay for them mark them up and then delivery to the client. Now i can bring those jobs to work - likely get paid to produce them and still make something when they are delivered.

And i still do things on the weekends and in the evenings on my own - i still have the verscamm but at the same time if i come home from work and dont want to do stuff i dont have to survive and live. And i dont have to worry when a client will pay me. Build up - personally id work and do your own thing on the side. Even if you were to sign the no conflict thing i really dont think it holds much merrit - im in canada but like people mentioned they cant stop you from using your skills. My work is supposed to send me to get wrapping certified - does that mean i wont be able to wrap them on my own time for clients? They have the equipment and clients to get them done - but they never have because they dont have someone to do them. Even if they pay my way to get certified - they would couldnt do them if i didnt work there unless they sent someone else.

But yea your experience means something - seems like your getting decent pay try doing both for a year and see how you feel after that. 8 months in and doing both and i love it. The pressure isnt there to get the work and make money

 

[bob]

...deletia...

Now granted, this is in my non-legal opinion, so take it for what it's worth.

Having some small but actual experience with these sorts of things, more than one lawyer retained by myself and others, held that in order to sign away something of value post facto [after gaining employment] the employee must be appropriately compensated or the agreement is null and void.

 

[FatCat]

Like many others have mentioned, owning your own shop seems like a good idea and a certain way to gain more control vs. working for someone else, but the reality of it can be very different than what you might imagine.

2009 was my first full year in business, so next year we will celebrate our 10 year anniversary. I started out as a 1 man band, slowly growing over the years and now have 2 full time employees and a part timer. The first few years were a struggle, I made some money, but having to constantly re-invest in the business didn't allow me to take home the pay I felt I deserved for the hours I worked. Things gradually improved and at this point in the game I feel I am FINALLY making decent money...9 years later. However, I have to be honest with myself that it hasn't been easy, and I probably worked nearly double the amount of hours and stress in that 9 years than I would have if I would have just worked as an employee and did my 40 hour week and went home. To this day my average week is 55-60 hours...even more when we are busy.

Along the way I forged relationships with 4 other local sign shops who started their businesses about the same time and we all worked/shared/advised each other which I felt really helped us all to some extent. Fast forward, the most successful of our group has 4 employees and doing quite a business, grossing over $600k/year, next would be my shop, of the remaining 3 the most successful is still a 1 man shop doing about $125k last year by himself and I will say works a LOT of hours to get that done. He refused to add help until a situation materialized end of last year where an old colleague moved back to town and they will now try to add her to the mix to help grow his business. (You have to realize as a 1 man shop, there is a limit of how much you can do simply because there aren't enough hours in the day.) Of the remaining 2 one was primarily an installer who had over 20 years experience, his own bucket truck and probably forgot more than I will ever know in regards to signs. However, he wasn't a good business person, cut a lot of corners, didn't re-invest in his business or equipment which finally did him in about a year ago. I think he still dabbles with signs, but is very limited and most likely working out of his house. The last of us another single man shop just never seemed to want to take the full plunge and never wanted to fully commit. He seemed to always be looking for the easy money, or the magical silver bullet. Sadly, his business is a fraction of what it used to be mainly I feel because he never did what was necessary to keep his business growing for the long haul.

My point after that long ramble, is that we all started about the same time. All of us had the dream to succeed, some had more experience, some had less. However, at this point I realize that amongst us, our success or lack thereof really didn't boil down to being good signmakers, but being good about business in general. That may seem elementary, but it is a hard truth to swallow. You won't succeed simply because you are knowledgeable about signs, know how to run every piece of equipment in the shop or are a kick-ass designer. In the end it all boils down to dollars and cents, making good business decisions, understanding your financials and the wants and needs of your customers and how to keep growing your business. I came to grips with this about 2-3 years ago and I finally see the mistakes I made early on, and feel lucky I am still here to learn from them.

Whatever you do, and regardless of what I said here, I wish you the very best.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Having some small but actual experience with these sorts of things, more than one lawyer retained by myself and others, held that in order to sign away something of value post facto [after gaining employment] the employee must be appropriately compensated or the agreement is null and void.

That may be the need in your jurisdiction or there may be other factors that aren't mentioned that bring about that need. Hard to say when not knowing everything that went on.

Now Minn, Texas, Washington and Hawaii are like you state, just continued employment is not enough, but not all jurisdictions are like that. What is true in one jurisdiction, may not be true in another. Different jurisdictions have different requirements, just because you may have experience in one jurisdiction, that doesn't mean that it will translate to the next jurisdiction.

Hell, TN upheld a non-compete to prevent former employees from competing within the USA for 2 yrs after they left. Now they signed non-competes after the company that they worked for was acquired by another company. Slightly different twist to your already gainfully employed scenario.

So it's really hard to say how these things will end up.

 

[equippaint]

Having some small but actual experience with these sorts of things, more than one lawyer retained by myself and others, held that in order to sign away something of value post facto [after gaining employment] the employee must be appropriately compensated or the agreement is null and void.

This is true in some states but not all. It is not down here. Same with undue hardship.
Either way this is not important. The problem is that no matter what the law is or says in your state, you have to fight it which costs a lot of $$$. You may prevail, it may get thrown out or you could lose but it's an expensive gamble. Offer to sign a non solicitation agreement or a short non compete for 1-2 months. However long you can comfortably sit on the sidelines until it runs out.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

This is true in some states but not all. It is not down here. Same with undue hardship.
Either way this is not important. The problem is that no matter what the law is or says in your state, you have to fight it which costs a lot of $$$. You may prevail, it may get thrown out or you could lose but it's an expensive gamble. Offer to sign a non solicitation agreement or a short non compete for 1-2 months. However long you can comfortably sit on the sidelines until it runs out.

Ironically, Florida was singled out in that same TN case that I referenced. Rather or not, what they did violated one of Florida's Acts (I think Uniform Trade Secrets Act). Also bare in mind, one of the issues was also if they former employees resigned with "good reason". Which was held that they did not.

So be vary careful what you sign and what is contained within it.

The problem is that no matter what the law is or says in your state, you have to fight it which costs a lot of $$$.

This is the most important thing in my mind here. Who has the deeper pockets. May not have the facts right, but some places can just outlast with regard to money and in the end, sometimes that's what makes someone "right". Or it certainly seems like it at times.