Oracal 651 on flat paint failing - ideas and tips for re-install

[Msrae]

I recently had a client wanting graphics on their large metal delivery doors in the back of the building. The client sent a picture and I didn't think much of it as these metal doors are usually powder coated and vinly adheres well. I thought it would go smoothly. When I arrived for the install howevver, it turns out he had roller painted the doors with a flat gray paint. I had cut it all out of 651 since it was a flat smooth surface and it has never failed me. I immediately started having some issues getting it to adhere. I preheated the doors in the sun and worked meticulously at making sure it was pressed on everywhere (went over it with a cloth using firm pressure then bare hands). When I went back to check on it the next day it was coming up in several areas. I smoothed it down again and waited. By the evening it was coming off again.

The client doesn't really want to remove it and wants to see if there is any way to save it. He is suggesting spaying over it with a clear coat.

Has anyone else had issues with adhesion on flat/rough paint? Any ideas on how to save this graphic? If not, any ideas on a good vinyl to use for a rough outdoor surface besides Orafol 651?

Thank you in advance

Rae

 

[BobM]

You need to determine what kind of paint he used. There are many paints that contain chemicals that prevent vinyl from sticking.

 

[signcrafters london]

Same thing happened to a local broker who buys vinyl and signs from me from time to time. He and his client didn't want to paint the door with oil-based paint, so I sold him magnetic material with the same kind of lettering on it.

 

[Jillbeans]

I agree with Bob.
I would peel off the old stuff and make the guy repaint with an enamel such as Rustoleum. Then after that's dried about 10 days, go back and apply new vinyl, but go with 751, 851, or 951. 651 is an intermediate and should never have been used on this job in the first place.
Charge him twice.
There really is no way to save it, and it sounds like he didn't tell you what kind of paint it was. Sometimes it pays to go have a look-see in person before tackling the job.
Love...Jill

 

[Msrae]

I don't think 751 would have adhered any better honestly. This client is pretty familiar with the vinyls and he is perfectly ok with 651 (struggling smaller business and has to watch the pennies), he has used it in the past and is aware of the limitations. I did give him the option of going for higher priced vinyl to begin with but he chose the lesser option.

Yeah, I know I should have gone and had a look-see, I should know better. I also shouldn't have wasted time trying to get it to work.. hindsight right?

I figured there wasn't any chance in saving it, but I thought I would ask to see if others had been able to come up with a brilliant idea Or, like I am seeing on here, recommendations on how to proceed.

I told him a couple of options, 1 - repaint the door with an oil/gloss paint and have it re-installed; 2 - I can cut it in stencil and we can paint the graphic.

From what I am hearing that is probably the only options he has at this point.

Thanks all for the feedback.

 

[decalman]

Yeah, the decal has to go.
Let him paint it again and then....
I would give him the option to buy another one, on the cheap. You already have it set up. Just run it out again. Let him install it . He sounds like he is able.
People like saving money options. This is the real world.

Problem solved. Everyone happy.

 

[Jillbeans]

...and then you can charge him to come out and fix it once he jacks up the decal
I don't give the client options when it comes to vinyl (not that I do it anymore, I went back to handpainting) Really, for 15" vinyl, the price difference is not that much for 751.

 

[Gino]

He doesn't hafta re-re-paint the doors, just give it a clear coat of whatever sheen he wants and then put your vinyl on. The 651 should be fine, if you wanna go cheap. Don't let the customer apply it. That looks dumb. If it was a number or something, Okay, but not copy. Be professional about it.

Now, learn a lesson about this and hopefully anyone else reading this........ Always ask what paint has been used, even if it was painted 10 years ago. Most paints have crap in them to repel all kindsa sh!t, including vinyl. Then, you can eliminate these extra measures. In my opinion, your customer did nothing wrong, this should be your mess to fix. It's up to the professional to know these things going in....... not an afterthought.

 

[Msrae]

...and then you can charge him to come out and fix it once he jacks up the decal
I don't give the client options when it comes to vinyl (not that I do it anymore, I went back to handpainting) Really, for 15" vinyl, the price difference is not that much for 751.

This is not 15" vinyl, this is a 50" decal over two large delivery doors. 751 is double the cost of 651, and it adds up quick on a decal of this size, and as I mentioned, the 751 would not have adhered any better. I agree though, I don't like my clients to apply their own unless it is a small decal. They are too easy to mess up.

 

[Msrae]

He doesn't hafta re-re-paint the doors, just give it a clear coat of whatever sheen he wants and then put your vinyl on. The 651 should be fine, if you wanna go cheap. Don't let the customer apply it. That looks dumb. If it was a number or something, Okay, but not copy. Be professional about it.

Now, learn a lesson about this and hopefully anyone else reading this........ Always ask what paint has been used, even if it was painted 10 years ago. Most paints have crap in them to repel all kindsa sh!t, including vinyl. Then, you can eliminate these extra measures. In my opinion, your customer did nothing wrong, this should be your mess to fix. It's up to the professional to know these things going in....... not an afterthought.

Thanks Gino,

I don't like to let the customers apply my graphics. They mess it up and it reflect poorly on me, so I completely agree. Lesson learned for sure. I also am now finding that window companies are putting on a "graffiti protection" coating on their store-front glass. Ended up having a graphic that wouldn't stick to the glass at all. There is a lesson there as well.

 

[BobM]

Remember, when a customer applies your vinyl and screws it up, they always tell everybody "you did the vinyl" and forget to tell them they screwed up the application.

 

[Msrae]

Remember, when a customer applies your vinyl and screws it up, they always tell everybody "you did the vinyl" and forget to tell them they screwed up the application.

Exactly

 

[Sam I Am]

Had to re-read this. Key is the flat paint. Nothing adheres well to a flat finish because of the flattening agent, i.e. talc. Refinish with a minimum semi gloss.

 

[rossmosh]

Go buy some DTM paint. Roll it or spray it on the doors. Let it dry a few days. Apply your vinyl. Everyone will be happy afterwards.

In the future always say something along the lines of "Vinyl doesn't stick well to every paint. I recommend you apply a sample piece and see how it sticks."

 

[Pippin Decals]

i always have my customers who want to apply themselves sign a waiver explaining they are responsible for what its going to be applied to since i wont know ...

 

[heyskull]

I have an ongoing issue with a customers roller shutter door also who we applied a digital print to.
This was painted prior to application.
We have now replaced it twice and the last time was using a premium material but once again it is lifting.
I now realise that the issue isn't with the material but what the door is painted with.
No matter what we use it will never adhere properly.
Customer applications are a serious "no go" as 99% of the time they haven't a clue how to fit.

SC

 

[eahicks]

One other thing you can do, in the case of flat paint, is take a rag or paper towels and alcohol and wipe the paint with alcohol TWICE. This tackies up the paint and the vinyl will stick better. I've had to do this with Phototex murals....it's a pain in the ***, but it does work pretty well.

 

[TXFB.INS]

We have found that scuffing the surface (fine sandpaper / steel wool / etc) helps and then doing some serious post heating

 

[signguy 55]

One thing that hasn't specifically been pinpointed is if the paint used is latex or oil based. Being just "flat" doesn't have anything to do with it, even though flat oil paint is virtually unknown but I have seen it.
In my 30 years at this when I would paint MDO boards, I could very easily get any color mixed in oil based. Now the law has changed and in just a few years everything will be water borne, even automotive paints. Most paint dealers don't carry much in oil based anymore, except some premixed colors like black or safety orange, etc.

I know I used Benjamin Moore latex in a pinch one time and vinyl finally stuck to it, but 99% of latex paints won't work. So if a customer is going to save a few bucks and wants to paint the substrate themselves make sure you specify "oil based", if they can find it. If a customer insists on painting something themselves and used latex I would not warranty the job at all, if I even agreed to do it.

 

[Msrae]

Thanks for all the input everyone. The customer doesn't want me to remove and try to re-apply until spring, despite my offer to take it all down, have him paint with a different (Not flat) paint and I would re-apply no charge. My only concern is that he is talking about gluing it in place until then... I have advised against this as it will be VERY difficult to remove when spring comes. He is insistent. I told him I would re-cut and re-apply but I would charge him my full hourly rate for the time it takes for removal if he does use any adhesives *sigh*. I will definitely be more thorough on my investigation of the decal install area.