paint questions

[iSign]

I took on a job of refurbishing an old double face sandblasted sign.

The client wants to change her salon colors from purple, magenta, white and lavender colors, to metallic gold, on black.

I hope I haven't already made mistakes... but I decided I ought to ask for some advice... better late than never.

I can only guess that the original sign was done with one-shot. There was a fine pin line painted on the otherwise thick raised border. It was nicely done with a pin striping brush. To me that is one clue that the sign might be enamels, like one-shot.

I also know a lot of the guys who have done signs here, over the years... and unlike a few other parts of the world, acrylics have not been popular among sign makers out here until more recently. Also, there was not much gloss, and a bit of a "chaulking" sort of discoloration to this old sign, which I have seen from one-shot...


Anyway, I already pressured washed the sign to remove any dirt, dust & possible areas of flaking paint. There was no flaking paint. After drying overnight, I painted one side with black one-shot, so that is where I'm at today.

My first question has to do with some fear as to what if the original paint was acrylic, will my black enamel fail?

Next question has to do with painting all the raised areas gold. Can I use a water base gold (like Triangle coatings) over the one-shot?

I have some one-shot gold, but I wanted to use the triangle if I can.

Last question, will I expect to need 2 coats, and if so, would there be any advantage to the first coat being white? I've noticed a lot of metallics seem more translucent than white, so I thought the white (or chrome yellow?) would help cover the black better than gold would... but 1 coat of gold will be sufficient over the white. (or yellow)

So, those are my thoughts... what are yours?

 

[Just Another Sign Guy]

you can paint enamel over acryllic but you can not always go the other direction.

i have had great success over the years refinishing older sandblasted signs. .. in my experience put your energy into the sign before it is time for paint (sanding, filling voids, etc)

i have no opinion in regards to the waterbase..just didnt want you to think i was neglecting that part of the ?

 

[Poconopete]

Anyway, I already pressured washed the sign to remove any dirt, dust & possible areas of flaking paint. There was no flaking paint. After drying overnight, I painted one side with black one-shot, so that is where I'm at today.
If any moisture got trapped, the new paint will fail. A longer dry time was probably needed.

My first question has to do with some fear as to what if the original paint was acrylic, will my black enamel fail?
It is possible, the original paint will most likely fail first.

Next question has to do with painting all the raised areas gold. Can I use a water base gold (like Triangle coatings) over the one-shot?
You could but that would be the same as painting oil over latex or acrylic. It has been done before and lasted.

I have some one-shot gold, but I wanted to use the triangle if I can.

1S gold sucks.


Last question, will I expect to need 2 coats, and if so, would there be any advantage to the first coat being white? I've noticed a lot of metallics seem more translucent than white, so I thought the white (or chrome yellow?) would help cover the black better than gold would... but 1 coat of gold will be sufficient over the white. (or yellow)
I would expect 2 coats no matter what color underbase you use.

So, those are my thoughts... what are yours?

 

[onesource]

I have had luck with some water bases adhering to old enamel, the premium water bases have good adhesion properties and don't fade/oxidize as fast as oil based.
I would use a good primer, paint the backgrounds with aWB gloss or flat and any trimmings with oil based and you should be fine. Really depends on your look but a good WB dries extremely hard and is a B&^$%h to sand.
Hope this helped a little

 

[SignosaurusRex]

Anyway, I already pressured washed the sign to remove any dirt, dust & possible areas of flaking paint. There was no flaking paint. After drying overnight, I painted one side with black one-shot, so that is where I'm at today.
If there was no flaking of the paint that you painted over already than you should be fine. If the paint takes much, much longer than normal to dry than its due to trapped moisture from water getting into the wood through small voids and cracks in the old paint layer. Hopefully that won't be the case.

My first question has to do with some fear as to what if the original paint was acrylic, will my black enamel fail?
No. You just don't want to put acrylic over enamel.

Next question has to do with painting all the raised areas gold. Can I use a water base gold (like Triangle coatings) over the one-shot? I have some one-shot gold, but I wanted to use the triangle if I can.
I'd stick to enamel based gold. If you can get it, 1Shot #111 Brass is a brighter gold.
If you do use the Triangle, than You might want to prime first and ad some chrome yellow to the primer as a tint. The w/b gold should work well.

Last question, will I expect to need 2 coats, and if so, would there be any advantage to the first coat being white? I've noticed a lot of metallics seem more translucent than white, so I thought the white (or chrome yellow?) would help cover the black better than gold would... but 1 coat of gold will be sufficient over the white. (or yellow)
Use yellow or imitation gold instead of white. Personally, I'd double coat every color/coat. I also almost always bury the whole thing in a clearcoat.

So, those are my thoughts...

 

[onesource]

In my earlier post where I posted two pics of old signs I made, the church sign was all aluminum using Sherwin Williams direct to metal primer paint then bordered in WB dark brown using a WB clear coat and then applying vinyl.
The sign was damaged in a tornado and during repair did I find out how hard that paint was to sand, it was like concrete.

Most SW brand paint sucks but the DTM is a very good primer and should work on wood!
Hope this info helps for those using metal

 

[Craig Sjoquist]

since most of the questions been answered
... except some detail on painting acrylic over enamel
Ronans Aquacoat has a great white primer or a Aquathane clear that works great,
both can go over enamel, the clear I use over 1shot so it will last also stain resistist

 

[Jillbeans]

I would worry that the sign had not been dried out enough overnight after the pressure washing. I'd have left it sit in the tropical sun for a few days to bake, on both sides.

As has been said, 1-Shot black is less than desirable these days. I would have opted for Ronan. I don't see a problem with painting enamel over possible acrylic/latex or over 1S as long as the surface is free of any loose paint, Scotchbrited, and cleaned well.

As for the gold paint, Ronan's Aqua-Leaf is good stuff.
1S gold is thin, has to be shaken/stirred continually, and can sometimes oxidize.
1S Brass actually has a brighter color than their gold, but it sucks too.
The best gold paint I have ever used is Kemp's Permagild It can be hard to find.
The next best is the Ronan. And Ronan offers a few color choices too.
I think I would make my first coat be imitation gold.
Love.....Jill

 

[iSign]

Thanks for all the good advice everyone...
I should have asked sooner, because I would have been willing to bring in a special paint... but this is my clients only sign, so she wants it back fast!

I'm confident that there was no moisture under the paint, so I believe it was completely dry. The black is done, so not subject to change there, but at least the oil on mystery paint seems to not be a concern...


for the gold... I guess some feel the water base is safe, and some don't...

hmmm... I keep you all posted

 

[SignosaurusRex]

Thanks for all the good advice everyone...
I should have asked sooner, because I would have been willing to bring in a special paint... but this is my clients only sign, so she wants it back fast!

I'm confident that there was no moisture under the paint, so I believe it was completely dry. The black is done, so not subject to change there, but at least the oil on mystery paint seems to not be a concern...


for the gold... I guess some feel the water base is safe, and some don't...

hmmm... I keep you all posted

Well, If it gonna be GOOD & FAST......It won't be CHEAP will it Doug!

 

[GB2]

What you have done so far up to the Black 1S paint is fine. I'd never take a chance now using a water base Gold on top of the fresh 1S Black. Just go with the 1S Gold, maybe it isn't the best Gold in the world but I never had any specific problem with it, I have pieces out there for years that look just fine. Actually I think it's kind of odd that some people correctly suggested that you should not paint acrylic over enamel but then went on to suggest you use a water base Gold paint....

 

[zmatalucci]

Perhaps I'm a moron, (no. I am) but I always liked to put maroon under gold leaf. it seems to give it a richer appearance. but if your not using leaf, dont do it.

 

[signmeup]

Don't be a wuss....gild it!

 

[SignosaurusRex]

What you have done so far up to the Black 1S paint is fine. I'd never take a chance now using a water base Gold on top of the fresh 1S Black. Just go with the 1S Gold, maybe it isn't the best Gold in the world but I never had any specific problem with it, I have pieces out there for years that look just fine. Actually I think it's kind of odd that some people correctly suggested that you should not paint acrylic over enamel but then went on to suggest you use a water base Gold paint....

I don't see where that was suggested. Did I miss something?

 

[Gino]

If you haven't painted any of the raised parts with the gold, I would sand them with 220. In fact, any raised flat area I would sand and tack before applying any paint.

There are many new paints and brands on the market and they all tell the consumer something different. The rule of thumb used to be oil can go over water, but no water or acrylic can go over oil. Also, no lacquer based paints on top of oil.

I would also give a first coat of Imitation Gold before the final gold... and lay it on thin and let thoroughly dry. At least two or three days in your climate. Don't tack at this point. If you don't like the coloring of the 1-Shot metallic gold.... tweak it and add some yellow, green, orange or any color you want to catch the hue you desire. [On a little corner mix some paint with your forefinger and mix colors around on a white piece of cardboard until you find a combination you like]

Usually when we refurbish a sandblasted sign, we will blow it clean, use a wire brush and go into all the fins and get out as much paint as possible and sand the flat surfaces. Then blow it well again. If any glue comes out, we'll stuff some two part glue back in the joints. We don't really ever re-prime anything because prime really belongs between a substrate and top coat..... not between two coats of paint. Also, we never wash them with soap or water before painting unless it sits idle for a week or so. It's a habit of taking the safe route instead of the possible troublesome route.

I don't know the size of your sign, but its a tedious job if done right, so no matter how much of a hurry the customer is in... you can't rush fine detailed work.

 

[SignosaurusRex]