Pantone matching for digital printing

[Fuzzbuster]

i couldnt have said it better myself. imagine the smile on my face when i told the customer, none of it mattered since there will be a lam-shift once its laminated. i mean give me a break.

Hope you were kidding about that

all this BS about color

assuming your profiles and printing conditions are consistent

every printer same or different brand on this site would print a different color with the same profile and substrateand pms #. maybe close but 2 identical printers would have some slight differences

you know what you can print by simply printing your own color chart like I said before...and if the customer`s final job is to be laminated then laminate your sample color chart

I remember you just installed a clean room... hopefully your not havin too much trouble with temp and humidity for consistency with your cfm input/output

throw the pantone book in the garbage(not litterally) its a good guide but your color chart IS your atainable color . specifying the one
that matches the one you want and NOT what you hope to get

i print color charts evry few weeks and even they differ slightly depending even on substrate batch number

IMHO.

 

[Ponto]

...not to mention the variations in each of our abilities to perceive color...

JP

 

[Jim Doggett]

Rooster,

Couple of easy ones:

Do too many people believe that by specifying Pantone whatever it will deliver to them the exact color they specify?

Is the above expectation perpetuated by the so-called "Pantone Matching System?"

I believe the only rational answer is "yes, to both." Thus I think someone needs to pop that bubble and send folks hurtling back to reality.

One way to do that is to articulate that Pantone colors are based on a system of mixing printer's inks ... something that is increasingly rare, these days. Ergo, antiquated and obsolete.

Noobs coming out of art schools, in a perfect world,, would understand how colors are reproduced and viewed. They're not, sadly. They come out thinkiong that the person that's been in the printing business all their adult lives is some kind of idiot because they can't match the goofball color the designer picked from their effing PMS color guide.

Drives me nuts. Ergo my original post: Pantone. Hate it.

Sorry if you love it, or even just kind of like it. But it's nothing but a pain in a world where 99.9% of the time color is going to look different no matter how strenuously one attempts to deliver on a brand promise (Pantone) that simply isn't doable, or rational.

My $0.02,

Jim

 

[Rooster]

Jim it depends on which pantone book you're talking about. The 4 color process guide set is designed to show their users what are acceptable color choices that can be reproduced using SWOP standard inks.

The Pantone formula guide is designed to show people what they can achieve when printing spot color inks.

Then there's even the pantone color bridge guide that shows the formula colors right next to how they look printed according to pantone's recommended SWOP CMYK numbers. They also have the new GOE bridge guides that offer similar functionality and not only the appropriate SWOP CMYK values, but also the sRGB and web HEX values and even screen tint percentages and their appropriate conversions to the SWOP, sRGB and WebHex values.

Informed buyers and industry professionals understand these differences. Uninformed people often think that those colors in the formula (spot ink) guide are attainable by any reproduction method. Although many are attainable using today's inkjet pigments.

This is where you need to be able to explain the differences to your customers in an articulate manner. If you're having trouble matching colors from the pantone formula guide then tell your customers to use the Pantone 4 color process guide instead. It limits their color choice with a smaller available gamut, but it shouldn't be a problem to match anything in it with any inkjet printer. As all the colors fall well within your available gamut. Explain that the CMYK based guide is more appropriate since your inkjet prints process CMYK colors like a traditional printing press. Simply explain that they are using the wrong pantone tool for their job.

Your attempts to blame Pantone for the expectations of an inexperienced or uninformed user are crazy. It's like a driving instructor blaming Ford because their students don't know how to drive. Pantone is simply a tool company. They make many of them for many different uses. You can't blame them if somebody tries to use their hammer to weld with. You can't blame your customers if you don't understand the differences enough to explain it either. People come to us because we're professionals. Not simply because we have a big wide printer.

Since you're searching for a rational answer then perhaps you need to understand how irrational you're being blaming a tool for the actions of it's users. It's not the hammers fault you keep hitting your finger.

 

[jasonx]

Am I correct in saying with our wide format printers the higher resolution you use the wider your gamut becomes due to the saturation levels at the higher settings?

 

[Jim Doggett]

Your attempts to blame Pantone for the expectations of an inexperienced or uninformed user are crazy. It's like a driving instructor blaming Ford because their students don't know how to drive. Pantone is simply a tool company. They make many of them for many different uses. You can't blame them if somebody tries to use their hammer to weld with. You can't blame your customers if you don't understand the differences enough to explain it either. People come to us because we're professionals. Not simply because we have a big wide printer.

You're killing me. I actually had to recover from this one. So it is we, the foolish end-users, who are misguided in thinking that PMS is somehow a standard by which colors are matched????

Really? It's just a tool that we are to blame for thinking it works???

That is by far the nuttiest attempt at blame-shifting I've heard in my 50+ years on the planet.

Dude!

 

[Rooster]

Am I correct in saying with our wide format printers the higher resolution you use the wider your gamut becomes due to the saturation levels at the higher settings?

Absolutely. You need to profile the higher resolutions to take advantage though.

The difference in gamut volume on a couple of my medias are as follows.

Roll up Display Material
720 x 540 - 6 pass has 91.2% of the 720 x 1440 - 16 pass setting.

Poster Paper
720 x 540 - 12 pass has only 75% of the gamut of the 1440 x 1440 - 32 pass setting.

Higher resolutions lay down more ink. A higher number of passes lets you lay down EVEN MORE ink.

You need to adjust your ink limits for each resolution and pass setting to take advantage of this though. You can't just use your 720 x 720 - 16pass setting and set your machine to 1440 x 1440 - 32 pass and expect to see an improvement. You'll have ink running down the sheet like you've been sitting there with a spray can.

Choosing a media that holds a lot of ink helps too.

Keep in mind that with some medias like a 2mil cast that you can overload the vinyl with ink (especially harsher solvents) and it will affect the adhesive on the reverse side. It will also soften the vinyl quite a bit until the solvents have all out gassed. You need to follow the manufacturers recommendations for total ink limits if you expect them to honor their warranties.

 

[Rooster]

Jim if you can't get it to work that is entirely your issue to deal with. You don't even seem to be able to fully grasp the variety of tools they offer and what they are designed for.

They work for me, exactly as advertised. I trust them every day and they don't let me down.

In fact they work so well that they have become an industry standard.

So who's foolish. The entire graphics industry..... or you?

Here's a piece of friendly advice. Make sure the wind is at your back when you urinate outdoors.

 

[Checkers]

Wow, there's some good debate going on here.

As this discussion shows, it would be difficult to recreate a color without knowing what you're trying to match. This is where the Pantone Matching System and other color guides come in to play.

The most important thing to remember though, is PMS and other color guides are just that - guides. There is no way possible for ANY color system to match colors with any consistency unless you're using the same media, reproduction method and ink that is used in the guide. So, to help with this issue, ICC profiling comes in to play.

The International Color Consortium (ICC) established voluntary standards (profiles) in which color can be measured and reproduced. These standards try to digitally compensate for the variables of reproducing color.

Profiling basically uses a target "number" in which all devices are calibrated to match. By using the various tools available, you are, more or less, trying to digitally dial in all of your devices to hit that target number, whether its your camera, monitor, printer, media, etc. Once you hit those target "numbers" the rest is easy

Personally, I would take a PMS number over "Forest Green" any day of the week because I know when I have a PMS number I have something fairly consistent to work with and match.

Checkers

 

[Jim Doggett]

Hi Rooster,

I have indoor plumbing. But thanks just the same.

OK; so you got lucky. The Pantone color your client insists be used in association with their brand just happens to be one that you can get real close to with CMYK ... even across varied media. Terrific.

How about their Web site? Or their magazine and newspaper ads? TV ads; everything in synch there too? Answer: no; not even.

So why on earth would they insist on color "matching" that if they're lucky will be on letterhead, envelopes, business cards and what you print for them (assuming you're not overstating), but nowhere else?

Choosing a Pantone color as a brand indentifier, whether or not you and thier envelope printer can get close is pointless. They've adopted a a color scheme designed for envelopes, which they rarely mail these days thanks to email. It would work on brochures printed 4/C + 1 or 2 or whatever. But then, they don't send out very many brochures these days because their customers would rather look them up online.

They can also rub the lamp, in which case you'll pop out and start reproducing the Pantone spectrum using your miraculous CMYK printing skills. But then again, most will not see your magical CMYK to Pantone output. They'll go online, pick up a magazine or turn on the idiot box.

Pantone is not the entire graphics industry.

 

[Jim Doggett]

Wow, there's some good debate going on here.

As this discussion shows, it would be difficult to recreate a color without knowing what you're trying to match. This is where the Pantone Matching System and other color guides come in to play.

The most important thing to remember though, is PMS and other color guides are just that - guides. There is no way possible for ANY color system to match colors with any consistency unless you're using the same media, reproduction method and ink that is used in the guide. So, to help with this issue, ICC profiling comes in to play.

The International Color Consortium (ICC) established voluntary standards (profiles) in which color can be measured and reproduced. These standards try to digitally compensate for the variables of reproducing color.

Profiling basically uses a target "number" in which all devices are calibrated to match. By using the various tools available, you are, more or less, trying to digitally dial in all of your devices to hit that target number, whether its your camera, monitor, printer, media, etc. Once you hit those target "numbers" the rest is easy

Personally, I would take a PMS number over "Forest Green" any day of the week because I know when I have a PMS number I have something fairly consistent to work with and match.

Checkers

Hi Checkers,

I agree with your premise. Indeed, you need a reference. I question if Pantone (sure; way better than "Forest Green") is the reference to be used. They should send RGB values identical to those they use when saving their logo to a JPG or GIF for their Web site; or the CMYK values they use when submitting files for ads and other 4/C offset print buys. Not Pantone.

Another problem is that when they send you the Pantone numbers it tends to presuppose that you'll be able to match their Pantone swatch. (Pantone creates that expectation) And you won't be able to, frequently. CMYK lacks the color depth.

It just creates cost, delays and frustration for them and you that is easily avoided by using the currently prevailing color models: RGB and CMYK.

Best,

Jim

 

[thewood]

I will take a Pantone number any day. With a Pantone number, I have a hard copy, definitive color to shoot for. If I can't reach it exactly due to the limitations of process printing, then so be it. But, more times than not, I can reach the color.

I loathe designs that include CMYK or RGB values with no Pantone reference. They were most likely values that someone toyed around with until they looked acceptable on their monitor. Was that monitor calibrated? To what color space? Will the process output match what it looks like on their screen? Give me a hard copy color swatch in the form of a Pantone number anyday.

 

[Checkers]

Hiya Jim,

I understand your logic, but the catch 22 with using CMYK or RGB models is what Rick mentioned; no 2 monitors, printers, etc, can reproduce color in the exact same way. So, the values will change according to how the image is printed, reproduced and/or displayed. And, without having a known standard to work from, that red you're trying to match today may morph into orange or something totally different down the road.

The reason why PMS is the "standard" reference guide in the design and printing industry is it's a relatively easy system to use. As a print producer or designer, can you imagine trying to look up or figure out what color equals RGB 198,12,48 or CMYK 0,100,75,4? Or would you rather know it's PMS 186 red and let your software/hardware match it and/or just pull a can of 186 red ink off the shelf?

PMS is far from a perfect solution. However, it does create a widely accepted, known standard (or goal) to shoot for when trying to reproduce color across multiple platforms.

In situations where CMYK or RGB isn't a perfect match to a PMS number, it is also our job to inform the client that there are limitations or we need to find and offer a more appropriate (and possibly more expensive) solution to keep the client happy. Actually, if the client is specifying PMS or another, they should realize there are limitations to the system too. But that's a discussion for another time

Checkers

 

[Jim Doggett]

I loathe designs that include CMYK or RGB values with no Pantone reference. They were most likely values that someone toyed around with until they looked acceptable on their monitor. Was that monitor calibrated? To what color space? Will the process output match what it looks like on their screen? Give me a hard copy color swatch in the form of a Pantone number anyday.

This is merely a heuristic argument, but why? What's being matched? A Pantone swatch, or the client's varied materials? If we're praying to the god of consitency, aren't they the same values, toyed with or not, that are used in reproducing everything else the client puts into the market? It seems like a lot of effort is being put into matching Pantone swatches, but to what end?

 

[rjpjr]

 

[Jim Doggett]

The reason why PMS is the "standard" reference guide in the design and printing industry is it's a relatively easy system to use. As a print producer or designer, can you imagine trying to look up or figure out what color equals RGB 198,12,48 or CMYK 0,100,75,4? Or would you rather know it's PMS 186 red and let your software/hardware match it and/or just pull a can of 186 red ink off the shelf?

Hi Checkers,

Point well made. But I think it's a standard that's fading, rapidly. Art submissions are no longer film and chromalins, much less boards and color chips. 10 grand in prepress is being replaced with a PDF upload that costs zip and trims days or even weeks off the schedule. Or it's electronic, with tons of budget shifting that way. Companies, the smart ones, are more concerned with eyeballs and metrics than with nominal (and unavoidable) variations in color.

I think Pro Wraps started this thread to express frustration about the dweebs who waste time and FedEx expense in service of something that's really last century. I agree completely with Pro Wraps in this regard ... designers, IMO, need to wake up and smell the 21st century. Sweating bullets on Pantone matching is increasingly pointless.

IMHO,

J

 

[P Wagner]

Both sides of this discussion are making valid points. If I was to paraphrase Jim's essential position, at least in part, he is objecting to Pantone's trademark/ license enforcement of their PMS color system (I don't want to put words into your mouth Jim). At the same time, it is true that there are a multitude of variables that will limit the effectiveness of using RGB and CMYK-based color models as a substitute color standard.

I might suggest that neither of these offer the 'best' solution. If a true, independent standard is the goal, without intrusive and onerous licensing restrictions, such an animal does exist - L*A*B* color. It is an encompassing color gamut that defines color in an absolute manner, with no room for subjectivity or variability.

At the same time, LAB is not a panacea. It 'suffers' from some of the same issues that beset Pantone, namely that it's gamut is much larger than even Pantone's and certainly larger than process CMYK. It does however remove the subjectivity of process color models and do so without any trademark/ IP/ licensing isues, a la Pantone.

Castek Resources

 

[Checkers]

...but to what end?

Good question Jim, but the end is (unfortunately?), PMS.

Because color is so important to society, someone had to create and maintain some sort of standard for accurate color reproduction and right now in the USA it's Pantone.

Is there is an equivalent or better system than Pantone that doesn't cost anything to maintain? If so, I would like to learn more about it.

BTW, there are other systems available, but I'm not familiar with them, so I can not comment...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantone#See_also

Checkers

 

[Rooster]

I've never argued anything other than that

Hi Rooster,

I have indoor plumbing. But thanks just the same.

OK; so you got lucky. The Pantone color your client insists be used in association with their brand just happens to be one that you can get real close to with CMYK ... even across varied media. Terrific.

Pantone colors are specified in far more place than simply logos.

How about their Web site? Or their magazine and newspaper ads? TV ads; everything in synch there too? Answer: no; not even.

Newspaper ads rarely ever achieve a color match I'll give you that. Newsprint is a very gray crappy stock. Often major advertisers will pay for an ultrabright stock if they're running a full color ad. This helps tremendously.

Major magazines are all running to high color reproduction standards (demanded by ad agencies). They also offer the ability for advertisers to run an extra color if they require a perfect match to a specific pantone color. You wouldn't believe how many ads (or even entire print runs) are comped when they don't meet those color standards.

As for Web and TV. Since these use an RGB color space there shouldn't ever be an issue in reproducing colors accurately to match a pantone chip. Unless you're using a metallic, florescent, or pastel shade (requiring white ink to achieve). Well within the available gamut, and pantone offers the RGB and LAB color specs in their digital libraries (the color palletes within say the adobe creative suite) to make reproduction as easy as selecting the appropriate number.

So why on earth would they insist on color "matching" that if they're lucky will be on letterhead, envelopes, business cards and what you print for them (assuming you're not overstating), but nowhere else?

Choosing a Pantone color as a brand indentifier, whether or not you and thier envelope printer can get close is pointless. They've adopted a a color scheme designed for envelopes, which they rarely mail these days thanks to email. It would work on brochures printed 4/C + 1 or 2 or whatever. But then, they don't send out very many brochures these days because their customers would rather look them up online.

They do it because they can. Because that specific color is important to their brand identity. That desire for consistency is no different than the reason why a big mac tastes the same no matter which location you buy it at. I'm hardly a marketing genius, but even I understand the importance of branding and maintaining a consistently recognizable image. Often large corporations will choose colors out of the standard gamut because they "pop". They stand out from the crowd. They become more easily recognizable. For some companies it's worth the added expense.

Since you wish them to choose to run everything in an RGB or CMYK spec you're forcing them to pay for process printing where it is not necessary. Where do I buy a can of C100/M40/0Y/14K ink if I want to run a two color offset or screen printing job? How do you spec the color for non-standard process printing like the N-color process used throughout the packaging industry. Process inks are not the entire graphics industry.

They can also rub the lamp, in which case you'll pop out and start reproducing the Pantone spectrum using your miraculous CMYK printing skills. But then again, most will not see your magical CMYK to Pantone output. They'll go online, pick up a magazine or turn on the idiot box.

Pantone is not the entire graphics industry.

If having well maintained and accurately profiled equipment and a thorough understanding of how it works and the process it uses to lay down ink is considered miraculous then call me freakin Moses. To me however, I just call it having a commitment to quality and being a professional who follows well communicated and defined industry standards. There's no burning bush imparting any mystical secrets to me. I'm not thumping my chest here. I'm simply telling you the answers to your problems are out there. All you need to do is seek them out. Shoot. If I can do it, then you can too.

 

[Jim Doggett]

They do it because they can.

I believe that as well.

Because that specific color is important to their brand identity.

I also believe they think that; and that if it's not the spot-on match to Pantone whatever, then recognition (what's important) diminishes. Not true. Color ranges, to an extent. More important is shape and placement.

What are the Pantone values being used on the brand-ID elements at these category-leading companies' home pages?

www.apple.com
www.microsoft.com
www.att.com

Jim