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People never cease to amaze me with their sneaky ways...

Stacey K

Stacey K

I like making signs
Guy just came in and showed me a screenshot of "HIS new logo" and asked if I could make a change to the small wording on top and some stickers.

Me: Sure! do you have the art file?
Him: No, I don't have it
Me: Who made the art for you? - EXACTLY what I asked
Him: A guy in PA <seems a little odd to me, but maybe a FIVRR guy>
Me: Are you able to ask him to send me the art file?
Him: I could probably ask him
Me: Did you pay for this artwork yet?
Him: No, I didn't
Me: If he created the art for you, once the final payment is made, he should send you all the art files, can't you ask him to change it and send me the file?
Him: Well, I just want some changes.
Me: If you didn't pay him for the art yet you need to, if you want to use the logo he made for you.
Him: There's no copyright on it though so just use it
Me: That doesn't matter, you didn't pay for it so he still owns it. It's copyright violation and it's a serious offense.
Him: Well, there's a lot of Black Diamond Tinting around the country
Me: So....is this someone's business logo or did someone design this for you specifically?
Him: COY GRIN, There's quite a few of them around and I can ask him if he will send it to me.
Me: Look, I'm not copying someone's logo, it's not legal and its not ethical, is this your logo or someone elses?
Him: Well, what if I call him and he says I can use it, then go ahead and recreate it
Me: Sure, if he sends me the art files directly with a signed notice releasing the copyright to you then it's totally fine!
Him: I'm not getting that fancy with this stuff
Me: Well, I can't help you then, this is NOT your logo. You can use the business name, if it's available in WI, and we can do something a bit different so it's not in copyright violation.

He wasn't very happy with me. I wasn't very happy he intentionally tried to con me into thinking this was his logo.

I just shook my head when he left. I told him to go back to the drawing board and I need 100% payment upfront for any logo design.

I will laugh if one you designed this logo!


1629752708109.png
 
C

CanuckSigns

Active Member
Good, people who try to be underhanded and shady are not who you want as clients, its never worth taking these types of people on.

Just like when someone comes into my shop and starts bad mouthing one of my competitors "Joe is a horrible businessman, he won't even return my phone calls!" I instantly know that Joe fired this guy and wants nothing to do with him, huge red flag!
 
signbrad

signbrad

New Member
Stacey K said:
I just shook my head when he left. I told him to go back to the drawing board and I need 100% payment upfront for any logo design.
Click to expand...
Good for you, Stacey! I appreciate the way you asked him if he paid for it—yet. No implication that he pirated it. You were tactful. I say something similar. I say, "Have you already paid for this design?"

A couple more points:
Logos are typically not protected by copyright in the US. A logo is commonly made up of lettering, simple shapes, or a combination of the two. These things do not qualify for US copyright protection. Even though the letters may be stylized or embellished, with outlines and gradients, the logo may still not be copyrightable.
However, if a business is currently using the name Black Diamond, and/or the Black Diamond logo you pictured, either or both are surely protected as a trademark, though they may not be registered. If the trademark is only used in a specific geographical area and not registered, it is known as a "common-law" trademark, and it automatically has limited protection. If your client's tinting business is not in the same area as the business represented by the logo that he claimed was his, he might get away with using the same name and a similar logo—maybe (a lawyer would obviously give a better opinion than me). A common-law trademark is usually protected only in it's local area of commerce. By contrast, a state-registered trademark would have protection in the entire state of registration, and, of course, a trademark registered with the US Patent & Trademark Office would have national protection in the US.

Your client is obviously trying to get something for nothing. Even if he avoids a legal challenge, the original artist is probably not being compensated, as you suspect. Whether a logo design is protected by copyright or not, a designer deserves to be paid for his or her work.

This case also shows how important it can be to make sure we get paid for design work before it leaves our possession.

Brad in Kansas City
 
Boudica

Boudica

I'm here for Educational Purposes
JBurton said:
Black diamond watermelons are some of the sweetest melons with the darkest rinds. Not like a colloquialism, like a brand name. They grow a lot of them in Cave City, and use it to lauder their meth money I guess...
Click to expand...
Ahh. Ok. Sounds tasty, I don't think we get them here. Black diamond watermelon that is. We have plenty of meth heads.
 
Boudica

Boudica

I'm here for Educational Purposes
Stacey K said:
Guy just came in and showed me a screenshot of "HIS new logo" and asked if I could make a change to the small wording on top and some stickers.

Me: Sure! do you have the art file?
Him: No, I don't have it
Me: Who made the art for you? - EXACTLY what I asked
Him: A guy in PA <seems a little odd to me, but maybe a FIVRR guy>
Me: Are you able to ask him to send me the art file?
Him: I could probably ask him
Me: Did you pay for this artwork yet?
Him: No, I didn't
Me: If he created the art for you, once the final payment is made, he should send you all the art files, can't you ask him to change it and send me the file?
Him: Well, I just want some changes.
Me: If you didn't pay him for the art yet you need to, if you want to use the logo he made for you.
Him: There's no copyright on it though so just use it
Me: That doesn't matter, you didn't pay for it so he still owns it. It's copyright violation and it's a serious offense.
Him: Well, there's a lot of Black Diamond Tinting around the country
Me: So....is this someone's business logo or did someone design this for you specifically?
Him: COY GRIN, There's quite a few of them around and I can ask him if he will send it to me.
Me: Look, I'm not copying someone's logo, it's not legal and its not ethical, is this your logo or someone elses?
Him: Well, what if I call him and he says I can use it, then go ahead and recreate it
Me: Sure, if he sends me the art files directly with a signed notice releasing the copyright to you then it's totally fine!
Him: I'm not getting that fancy with this stuff
Me: Well, I can't help you then, this is NOT your logo. You can use the business name, if it's available in WI, and we can do something a bit different so it's not in copyright violation.

He wasn't very happy with me. I wasn't very happy he intentionally tried to con me into thinking this was his logo.

I just shook my head when he left. I told him to go back to the drawing board and I need 100% payment upfront for any logo design.

I will laugh if one you designed this logo!


View attachment 155044
Click to expand...
Sorry if I missed it... Did he ever tell you what he wanted different? Just curious
 
Johnny Best

Johnny Best

Active Member
Goog;e black diamond tint logo in images, you see the exact logo located in Pottsville, PA.
Nobody did it for him, he took a screenshot off the internet. Design him a new logo and go from there.
 
Stacey K

Stacey K

I like making signs
Boudica said:
Sorry if I missed it... Did he ever tell you what he wanted different? Just curious
Click to expand...
The little words on the top would be different, I can't remember off hand what he wanted them to say. I couldn't read them on his screenshot so maybe he wanted the order changed LOL
 
Stacey K

Stacey K

I like making signs
Johnny Best said:
Goog;e black diamond tint logo in images, you see the exact logo located in Pottsville, PA.
Nobody did it for him, he took a screenshot off the internet. Design him a new logo and go from there.
Click to expand...
Yes. that is exactly right, it's the first thing that pops up on Google. I went over my design process and told him the entire fee is paid upfront before any work begins. Typically I only do half down but in this case he's clearly going to get far enough in the process and I'll never hear from him again. I highly doubt he will be back. He will find someone with a cricket to do it for him.
 
B

Bobby H

Arial Sucks.
Sign companies can and do get in trouble for knowingly violating copyright or trademark rules on behalf of ignorant or unethical clients. But it's usually the businesses ripping off the artwork that get in the most trouble. And then there is the matter of $hi++ing in your own back yard when reproducing artwork from a rival that hasn't been purchased. Yeah, you can take the money and run from that one client. But you're going to have bad blood between you and the competitor you plagiarized. In my region we try to do best for ourselves, but if we're overloaded with work we'll offer to kick jobs other sign companies who can handle it. And they'll do the same with us likewise. We'll sell each other material when one of us is in a pinch and need it that day. Any sort of courteous relationship like that will be absolutely impossible if the rival sign companies are ripping off each others' artwork.
 
SignosaurusRex

SignosaurusRex

Active Member
Bobby H said:
Sign companies can and do get in trouble for knowingly violating copyright or trademark rules on behalf of ignorant or unethical clients. But it's usually the businesses ripping off the artwork that get in the most trouble. And then there is the matter of $hi++ing in your own back yard when reproducing artwork from a rival that hasn't been purchased. Yeah, you can take the money and run from that one client. But you're going to have bad blood between you and the competitor you plagiarized. In my region we try to do best for ourselves, but if we're overloaded with work we'll offer to kick jobs other sign companies who can handle it. And they'll do the same with us likewise. We'll sell each other material when one of us is in a pinch and need it that day. Any sort of courteous relationship like that will be absolutely impossible if the rival sign companies are ripping off each others' artwork.
Click to expand...

Those that step on others toes, often find they can barely crawl...let alone walk. One hand washes the other and they both scratch the back. Professional courtesy.
 
WildWestDesigns

WildWestDesigns

Active Member
Terry01 said:
You are in the business of reproducing images supplied, or designing your own. Take his money and run..It is not your job to worry about copyright.
Click to expand...

Really?
There is a certain expectation (at least in my mind) if we are in the profession of logos/signage/branding etc, that there is we are supposed to have a little bit more knowledge as to what is someone else's and what is not. There is a certain reasonable amount of effort that we are responsible for doing to make sure everything is kosher (key word being "reasonable"). That (to me) is part of the territory of considering oneself a "professional".

Some people may never get caught or maybe the "damage" that is caused by this little transaction is so little that the faceless corporation (or if it's a small company, may not have the funds to try to do something about it) may not pursue it.

Some say that the risk of getting caught is so little that not to worry about it (I have to wonder if that is the case, what other actions are they willing to do if the risk is also so little that they aren't worried about getting caught? But I digress).

Then you have those that believe having the customer sign a waiver saying that they release all blame for those that are reproducing said design. How can someone, when it's determined that it isn't there design, hold you blameless when it isn't even their own property to begin with?

To me, in this situation, to do "what I gotta do" would be to sell them on something that I could do myself or come back with their previous design to where it looks like the proper channels were gone through. Sure, customers will be lost (I actually had 2 different digitizing customers come to me with the same design, one after the other (by about a day) over this very thing and what their customers were wanting was to just be cheap to get around the contracts that the home office had with other companies), but I would rather not have to worry about being the one that wrongfully stepped on other's toes. But that's just me, we know I'm a little whacked as it is.
 
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