Permit bounced back for lack of "shear or pullout values"

[TimToad]

So, our little town which has a YYUGE! issue with non-compliant signs has drastically reduced the sign permit fees and started allowing business owners themselves to submit their own permit applications in an effort to boost compliance. From my observations the now 1 year old campaign has been an abysmal failure. This is a very conservative, Tea Party stronghold and even if the city paid business owners for getting permits, many wouldn't get them.

The enforcement is uneven, inconsistent and is usually either far too aggressive or non-existent. Customers come to us nearly in tears after receiving these strongly worded enforcement letters, yet their next door neighbors with the exact same type of non-compliant sign won't even get a letter. Despite there being a 50% limitation for coverage on window graphics and only 25% coverage in the downtown core, one of our competitors located in the downtown core has 100% coverage on his gigantic picture windows and regularly does 100% coverage windows for customers all over town.

Feather flag signs, A Frames in the middle of pedestrian walkways, banners being used as permanent signs, swing signs with questionable construction methods, post and panel signs not set deep enough or in concrete are slumping all over town, etc... are the main blight we see every day.

Another competitor does electric signs and channel letter jobs without permits or being licensed to do so here. They just order them from RSS or another wholesaler and slap them up on the weekends.

We'll bid sign after sign to replace non-compliant signs and a few weeks later a new sign will go up but there almost never a record on the city's website of a permit being applied for which shows all permits that are applied for and granted. The list is updated every week.

Sorry, I've had that rant building up for a while.

To my question. A client we are doing some dimensional letters for submitted her permit and we did the basic drawings that in 99% of cases would be ample to show everything the city needs to approve.

The city came back with a rejection based on us not showing the "shear values" and "pullout values" for the letters into the wall. We specified and illustrated that the letters are being installed with a minimum six 4" long threaded studs per letter going into 5" deep 1/4" holes filled with LEXEL elastomeric construction adhesive.

Does anyone know how you calculate a "pull out" value off a product datasheet or other construction related calculator?

Please keep you responses out of the gutter as we've already had plenty of fun with this one already. I also don't see how there could be a "shear value" on something threaded into the back of the letter and sunk 4" deep into holes barely bigger than the 3/16" threaded studs filled with adhesive.

Even our installer can't remember the last time, a city planner anywhere he works has asked for these specs.

 

[Moze]

That's insane.

I'm supposed to be coming out to California soon to install a bunch of signs at a medical center and it's been a nightmare with all of the things they require. It's like every nut and bolt has to be described and identified and broken down.

Hope you get it figured out.

 

[J Hill Designs]

ridiculous, unless the letters are huuge.
pay an engineer, and charge the client if its that much of a roadblock. (and expect to up install charge, because an engineer will, 9 times out of 10, EXTREMELY over-engineer it)

 

[GAC05]

Spec Tapcon anchors for the studs then provide them with a copy of this:
http://www.constructionfixings.com/Assets/pdfs/tapcon.pdf


wayne k
guam usa

 

[decalman]

Over regulating businesses make it hard to be successful.
I'd like to go to the beach, but I try to avoid even driving through California. No offense.

 

[rjssigns]

OP may be in Cali, but it sounds like he could be working in the next town over in the great white north. Absolute mess trying to get a permit for any type of sign. Last one required a 15' setback from the right-of-way. So I asked the planner where the right-of way survey line was. I'm still waiting for an answer. It's been over a month.

 

[Billct2]

Yep, here there are towns that require an engineered drawing for any sign install. So a 2'x8' dibond sign screwed to a wall could have a $1000 in permit costs.

 

[2B]

we also have had and are having SEVERAL projects where the permits are beyond ridiculous and cost us the bid.

There are some towns we service that we will straight up list the permit fees separate and tell the customer that we will be more than happy to design / make the sign but you are better off installing either yourself as the town that have these ridiculous permits are VERY LACK when it comes to enforcing them.

 

[J Hill Designs]

we also have had and are having SEVERAL projects where the permits are beyond ridiculous and cost us the bid.

There are some towns we service that we will straight up list the permit fees separate and tell the customer that we will be more than happy to design / make the sign but you are better off installing either yourself as the town that have these ridiculous permits are VERY LACK when it comes to enforcing them.

I ALWAYS list permit fee's separately...

permit acquisition $250.00
Permit fees (billed at cost) estimated $600.00

 

[fresh]

Yep, here there are towns that require an engineered drawing for any sign install. So a 2'x8' dibond sign screwed to a wall could have a $1000 in permit costs.

here too. literally had to get an engineer's drawing for this exact scenario. i forgot who I used, but there is actually a company who specializes in sign drawings, and it wasn't that expensive... however, a dibond sign is pretty cheap in the first place.

 

[Bigdawg]

Yep. We've had issues here too. Just depends on what inspector gets the permit and what his/her mood is for the day. We've had signs that were permitted together on a building a couple years ago bounce back needing separate permits for a reface this year! We absolutely will not install without a permit, but there's a lot of them out there that do. Or they put up a $1,000 sign and declare $400 as the construction value. Since Florida is an open records site, customers can look up their neighbors permit and wonder why our sign cost was so much higher. It's because we don't lie.

We quote a permit acquisition fee with permits at cost. We will not give a written estimate on the fees since they seem to be all over the place. Luckily we've not had to pull out engineer drawings too often. It's just part of the business, but sooooo frustrating sometimes.

 

[TimToad]

Sorry for raising everyone's hackles on the general topic of permits and the perils of regulations, but our town has actually taken steps to vastly lower the costs and simplify the process. I was involved in the process and advised throughout that unless the city evens up its enforcement practices and applies the new rules equally and fairly, the level of compliance won't go up and it hasn't. While its easy to always blame government for everything, a large part of our problem is that the other sign companies in town aren't abiding by even the new streamlined, cheaper and less restrictive process.

Our home garage and basement dwelling mostly bottom feeder "colleagues" don't help much either because many of them don't even want the government knowing they derive an income from their operations.

Also, most customers refuse to take advantage of the new process either even after getting a warning letter. Nearly every month I drive by a business that had come in here after getting the non-compliance letter and having us go through the whole bidding process and educational part of explaining why this is important and how it will lead to a better looking town only to see them go elsewhere and skip getting the permit AGAIN. Our city website publishes a list of all permits applied for and granted and updates it every week. I check it every week to track just how many of these people ever go get a permit.

Anger and resentment rightfully springs up from the businesses trying to comply who see a new sign put up a few doors down and find out that the business just went to one of the other sign companies and skipped the whole stressful process the ethical business owner is being put through.

I've never worked anywhere where any non-illuminated sign or dimensional letter permit was only $50 and could be obtained by the business owner themselves and them only having to agree to use a licensed contractor to install the job. A year ago this permit would have been $475.00. Before the reforms I helped get implemented, every single sign permit not only went through sign design review, but also had to have a building permit attached to it just as if you were putting an addition or a new roof on your house.

Where this new system is failing is on the unequal enforcement side and the occasional project like this where somebody in the building department decides in an individual case that he's gonna play super inspector and require some OCD level of compliance. These are just some 24" tall 1/2" PVC routed letters weighing about 2 lbs. each spelling the word "YOGA" with a circular lotus flower and the business logo inside of it replacing the letter "O" going into a block wall with 4" long threaded studs just like any set of Gemini letters would.

Back to the original question. Does anyone have any idea of how to calculate the "pull out" value of a 3/16" x 4" long threaded stud being inserted into a 1/4" x 5" deep hole filled with LEXEL or 100% silicone sealant?

 

[rossmosh]

If you see this as a problem that you'll have regularly, I'd go ahead and do an actual "lab" testing. A good engineering school with have a civil engineering lab where you can easily do this testing. You might even be able perform it at the local community college. If you decide to go this route, I'd personally get a grad student to help me.

As for the process, it's pretty simple. Drill your hole into your material (I assume concrete block), fill it with Lexel. Let it cure. Then apply force and see how much is required to pull it out. The test is simple enough to do in your own facility but the testing equipment might be cost prohibitive.

While doing the test, you might as well test the PVC side as well. It's probably the weaker link.

 

[Starter]

Do you by chance belong to a sign association? They can provide most specs and engineered drawings for flag mounts, awnings, cradles, wind loads, anchoring systems etc.. you purchase the stamps with your yearly registration fee for the upcoming year. I am not sure if this helps you on this job....but may be something for you to look into. It is a lot cheaper than hiring an engineer.

 

[Kottwitz-Graphics]

As for the process, it's pretty simple. Drill your hole into your material (I assume concrete block), fill it with Lexel. Let it cure. Then apply force and see how much is required to pull it out. The test is simple enough to do in your own facility but the testing equipment might be cost prohibitive.

While doing the test, you might as well test the PVC side as well. It's probably the weaker link.

Or take the heaviest letter, multiple the weight by say 6 or 8 and tell them that is the pullout value...

How are they going to argue it?

 

[TimToad]

Thanks for the last two suggestions. I don't think the inspector is looking for an engineer's stamp or approval. I sent him the product datasheets for the most two most common adhesives we use on stuff like this and we'll see if he can gather what he needs to make a determination from the published tensile strength and cured strength factors.

Personally, I think they are so taken aback that a local sign company is actually NOT evading the permit process that we surprised him with this one.

 

[Moze]

For what it's worth, the pull out value between Lexel and silicone is pretty drastic.

 

[TimToad]

For what it's worth, the pull out value between Lexel and silicone is pretty drastic.

And I didn't even want to open the can of worms on the difference when using epoxy, which if its ground level letters near a school or park, we'll use not to eliminate, but lessen the impacts of juvenile shennanigans.