Permit or pass?

[gnubler]

Being new in business I'm still figuring out which signs require permits and which do not. I'm based in a rural area and have been dealing with the sign code for three small cities plus the county, and with the exception of a couple people in planning/zoning there's a general incompetence when it comes to getting an answer for the simplest of questions. Usually they just don't know or make up something. I don't want to turn down jobs or installs, but I've had a few customers who are either annoyed or disappointed when I bring up the topic of needing a permit for a commercial sign, as if it's my fault. I want to help them, not turn them off. I've had a few orders where they declined my installation and did it themselves without a permit, not my problem at that point.

Have any of you turned down installs or lost jobs because the customer doesn't want to go through permitting, or thinks they don't need one?
Have any of you done commercial installs without a permit because it's rural or private property? What was the outcome?
Does it just take time and experience to know when a permit is or isn't needed? The sign code for my cities/county is available online, but often a question or challenge comes up that isn't in the code and nobody can give me a straight answer.

 

[Gino]

You always need your answers in writing by a codes person. Anything else will not hold up, if something goes wrong.
Anything you do as a second or third party cannot be done legally inside or outside without a permit.
Others will tell you how to skirt around it, but there comes a point, when you just want to be legal and not skirting by laws.

Permits were originally meant to protect customers from kinda being scammed by crooked sign people, but in the last 20 years or so, it's all about class c lawyers and something going wrong. Therefore, the city, county, whatever municipality...... want to know if something goes wrong during or afterwards of these signs, it was structured properly buried properly and how. Should something go wrong, if you didn't get a permit and someone gets hurt on the job, or it falls down and hurts or maimes someone, you have ample insurance to cover it, cause these ambulance chasers will sue everyone involved and if the town doesn't have a permit registered on that job stating all the facts, they will get into additional trouble. However, if you put a sign up without a permit, you can easily be fined and perhaps find they will watch you like a hawk from there on. If your customer wants to instal their own sign, then the burden will land on them, releasing you from any faults, unless your sign was fabricated wrong, like non-UL stamped, wrong size posts or no elevation drawings. Just because you didn't do the actual installation, does not mean you are not the professional and need to supply everything properly and give ample instructions. It becomes a hairy situation.

Why do you think an electrician cannot hook up your kitchen stove or the plumber instal a new furnace without being properly licensed and pulling permits ??

 

[gnubler]

I totally agree with you, and am learning as I go how to propose this to customers without scaring them off. My region is notorious for backwoods/ramshackle construction where plenty of crap goes up without permits or inspection. But myself as a business, I want to operate professionally and be able to guide my customers in the right direction for all the reasons you stated. Many of the staff at the cities/county here can't answer my questions, or just wing it, and it's been a challenge.

 

[2B]

Luckily permits are required only INSIDE city limits for us, outside just make sure where the property lines are and do not encroach.

Yes, we have and continue to lose jobs because of permits.
Still remember being yelled at and called a liar about permits. this was from another business and they were friends with the code officer.
While standing in the office they called the code officer, while on speaker, to set the records straight and prove we were trying to rip them off.
Once told that permits were required, they countered and said XXXXX installed without one, and so will I.
The code officer replied, thanks, I will issue a fine for XXXXX and if you install you will be fined 2x because you have been warned

NEVER EVER rely on verbal, EVERYTHING in writing, E-mail or Text.

offer your customers 2 price options
1. turnkey, you have a permit from whatever city
This will annoy and cause some customers to go elsewhere, especially when you start billing for everything required to pull a permit

2. product only, customer can install OR you already have the contact info of someone that can install

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

If you're dealing with small towns, it should be easy to get on first name bases with building / planning people. 90% of them are easy to talk to and I can call them up and ask quick questions. Most "big" signs I'll pull permits for. Sometimes I don't. I got caught a few times and the punishment has been as minor as paying the permit fee... to causing a 100' hi-rise sign to be put out of compliance. It was grandfathered in but because we changed faces out in one of the cabinets they claimed we voided the grandfather clause and that we'd have to apply for a variance to keep the sign. The local installers didn't apply or let us know we needed permits. The sign is a giant hi-rise for a travel center with electronic pricers, 5 cabinets and probably worth more than half a million dollars. Still waiting on the outcome of that problem...

 

[brentjosker]

Here is my speal to my customer:
Sir, officially, you need permits, it is my responsibility to inform you of the process
Now, unofficially if it is that much of a hassle, dont pull any permits and i will do it on the weekend and you pull the permit based on you putting up your own sign.

 

[Gino]

That's a great speil ya have, but you're the reason the rules got so frickin' bad. Maybe not you per se, but all the people reading this and saying, yeah, that's what I'll do, but they are too stupid to do it right, something goes wrong and there's a writeup about it and then we all hafta pay for that imbecile's negligence. It's better to keep that justification to yourself and hope others don't do the same.

Ya know, it's the same concept as having insurance on your car or home. If you do something and it goes wrong, you're probably covered, but if you commit fraud, ya ain't covered and might even do jail time according to how severe it was. Someone purposely not pulling a permit is plain committing fraud. Wanna skirt around it by mincing words, try it and see how far ya get.

 

[signage]

Now, unofficially if it is that much of a hassle, dont pull any permits and i will do it on the weekend and you pull the permit based on you putting up your own sign.

This is the reason this industry/businesses are going down the toilet for the most part! If you are a true business person you don't do this or even recommend it on a so called professional sign forum!

 

[Sign consultant]

Simple get wavier from client if they give in writing they will be responsible for permit things you are good,most of the time it works

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

Well, the client insisted I work without a permit, so they are dealing with ramifications of this one. They don't actually own the sign so who knows how this is will shake out. I wonder if someone had to be responsible would it be the local installers that we subbed to install? I can't pull permits for a sub... only they are allowed to.. the ones doing the actual work. I did get a COI from them so at least there's that.

 

[MikePatterson]

I do a lot of our work under maintenance. Bulb changes, LED retros, new faces, etc. No permit required. I would suggest printing the sign code for the areas you work in and highlight/tab them. Keep them in binders in the install truck. Code enforcement is notorious for rolling up on a bulb change job and going on a rant about pulling a permit and shutting your job down for the rest of the day while you sort it all out at the permit office. Only to figure out a permit is not needed.
When I say we do new faces unpermitted, I mean the business name didn't change. Anything else is permitted. All new construction is engineered with FEA. We get a lot of pushback on permitting and I loose jobs over it but I'm not loosing my electrical license over some "on the side weekend install". We usually add $400 to the top of the permit for all the leg work, color samples, and renderings that are required. My cheapest permit is $475 in our area. I just did a quote with a permit costing $2800. And that doesnt include artwork, engineering or anything else.

If someone wants a sign installed without permitting, they can go somewhere else or do it themselves. We run a real business, pay for GL, garage keepers, workers comp, you all the overhead that no one thinks about.

 

[Johnny Best]

Bureaucracy at its finest. Permits. I can understand why the cities want them because of unwanted ugly signs that might burn down because of electrical genius doing the wiring. I go through the permit isle and fill out the forms, pay the price required and get out as fast as possible. Only good thing about wearing masks is I don’t have to keep a smile on my face and kiss up to those people who could not keep a job in the field at which they are handing out permits for.

 

[visual800]

If Im putting a large banner on the side of your building Im not wasting time with a permit. If Im sliding some pan faces in your existing sign Im not wasting time with permits. If I letter your vehicles Im not getting a permit. If I do a set channel letters or a pylon sign Ill get a permit. In our city no one goes out and inspects or does anything that warrants a permit. They simply do not police anything like that. If you are in the "smart zone" I know the rules for signage and I follow those rules.

Permits are nothing more than red tape BS for more income for the city (at least here). Now going into Prattvile is a different story they are wanting to bust your a$$ for doing anything without a permit there and trust me they are out looking! They are hard on the little man in Prattville BUT there is major homebuilder building 100s of homes in Prattville and the inspectors turn the other way, gotta love politics!

 

[brentjosker]

This is the reason this industry/businesses are going down the toilet for the most part! If you are a true business person you don't do this or even recommend it on a so called professional sign forum!

This is where alot of people disagree! I can advise my client to do what he is supposed to do, but there are alot of business owners who are not interested in doing what the towns want. DONT GET THIS TWISTED, I REPRESENT MY CLIENT, NOT THE TOWN! So you have your opinion, i got mine.

 

[Medina Signs]

In the areas we service, permits are usually necessary. Zoning Permits are sometimes different from Building Permits. If we do a job in a township, the county may require a building permit. I have found that if Zoning permits are required, and a customer does not want to pay for his permit, the onus is on the owner of the sign. That's not to say I wouldn't get a black eye at the zoning office for not pulling the permit.

Unless it is an exorbitant cost, another way to go is to build the cost of the permit into your sign price and pull the permit, That way, everyone is happy. If your customer says that you are a few hundred higher than your competitor, you can always inform them that the permits are included because we are 'Looking out for YOU - our valuable customer.

 

[brentjosker]

That's a great speil ya have, but you're the reason the rules got so frickin' bad. Maybe not you per se, but all the people reading this and saying, yeah, that's what I'll do, but they are too stupid to do it right, something goes wrong and there's a writeup about it and then we all hafta pay for that imbecile's negligence. It's better to keep that justification to yourself and hope others don't do the same.

Ya know, it's the same concept as having insurance on your car or home. If you do something and it goes wrong, you're probably covered, but if you commit fraud, ya ain't covered and might even do jail time according to how severe it was. Someone purposely not pulling a permit is plain committing fraud. Wanna skirt around it by mincing words, try it and see how far ya get.

No Gino, it got bad when the towns went from serving the community to serving themselves, the town are paying these "City Officials" in the upwards of 50 to 60 Grand a year, which is absolutely ridiculous, majority of these guys are clueless themselves or just complete jerks. Well guess what you got to get that money from somewhere, Cant raise taxes that high, hmmm where you gonna get it? oh snap, licenses and permits, along with other way, "creative taxing". What happened to the days of permits being 35.00 dollars, nope 450.00 all the way up to $2000.00, and dont tell me cause i have had to pay them. So dont give me that crap. The towns are being ran like a business, not as a good steward to the business community.
okay how about this, tell me this Gino, why does the Town of Hamburg, New York charge a yearly maintenance fee for a LED display? They already collected the permit fee for the sign , which was absorbent itself.
No! the business owner are to familiar with the high fees and hoops these towns make you dance through to advertise their own businesses, in order to pay the towns taxes and support their families.
So we can agree to disagree, dont blame guys like us who take the sides of our clients, im not a "company" man, i have my clients back!! I support the little guy!!!

 

[Gino]

Sorry brent, but this has nothing to do AT ALL with opinions. You are either breaking the laws by telling your customers you'll do it over the weekend if they don't wanna pull a permit or you tell them, you cannot do it unless they or you pull a permit. How in the world can you justify your statements ?? While the codes people are nothing more than glorified business people, it's what it is, not what you want it to be. If ya wanna help your customers...... become a codes guy. Do it for free and let every schmuck who wants to put up a sign in any fashion do it, the the whole town'll love ya. Seriously, you think your wild accusations hold any water ?? They're all just a buncha emotional outbursts. While you want a codes person to turn his head towards you, you want him to smash the hacks. That is illegal. One set of laws for EVERYONE to follow. Who are you to be played as a favorite ??

With your theory/theories, perhaps there are a few people who know what they're doing. Back in my day, that's exactly how it was. Move into the 80s and 90s and everyone is jumping into this business cause they think it's easy, cause of computers, and now it's even worse. I had a sign shop down the street from me, back in the late 80s would make his signs outta paper, cause that's all his new toy could do. When he jumped into making exterior signs, guess how he solved it. His explanation was you wrap saran wrap around the paper sign and staple it to a piece of marine plywood. That's the kinda people these laws are meant to hurt. Bozos like that and there's wa-a-a-ay more of them, than people who actually know what they're doing, but oh-no, you keep defending these a$$holes and the laws are just gonna get worse. You are doing a DISservice to the sign industry AND your customers with your mindset.

 

[signage]

This is where alot of people disagree! I can advise my client to do what he is supposed to do, but there are alot of business owners who are not interested in doing what the towns want. DONT GET THIS TWISTED, I REPRESENT MY CLIENT, NOT THE TOWN! So you have your opinion, i got mine.

I'm not getting anything twisted, if you are a professional you do not tell a customer how to not follow the law. That would be like a home buyer telling the bulder to not follow electrcial code and all other codes! Like I said people like you are making the sign industry in a race to the bottom! Happy I am about ready to retire, which you guys mostlikely will not be able to do!

 

[brentjosker]

Sorry brent, but this has nothing to do AT ALL with opinions. You are either breaking the laws by telling your customers you'll do it over the weekend if they don't wanna pull a permit or you tell them, you cannot do it unless they or you pull a permit. How in the world can you justify your statements ?? While the codes people are nothing more than glorified business people, it's what it is, not what you want it to be. If ya wanna help your customers...... become a codes guy. Do it for free and let every schmuck who wants to put up a sign in any fashion do it, the the whole town'll love ya. Seriously, you think your wild accusations hold any water ?? They're all just a buncha emotional outbursts. While you want a codes person to turn his head towards you, you want him to smash the hacks. That is illegal. One set of laws for EVERYONE to follow. Who are you to be played as a favorite ??

With your theory/theories, perhaps there are a few people who know what they're doing. Back in my day, that's exactly how it was. Move into the 80s and 90s and everyone is jumping into this business cause they think it's easy, cause of computers, and now it's even worse. I had a sign shop down the street from me, back in the late 80s would make his signs outta paper, cause that's all his new toy could do. When he jumped into making exterior signs, guess how he solved it. His explanation was you wrap saran wrap around the paper sign and staple it to a piece of marine plywood. That's the kinda people these laws are meant to hurt. Bozos like that and there's wa-a-a-ay more of them, than people who actually know what they're doing, but oh-no, you keep defending these a$$holes and the laws are just gonna get worse. You are doing a DISservice to the sign industry AND your customers with your mindset.

Again it all comes down to which side of the fence you are on. We can sit here are argue all the points but at the end of the day it is all about the client.
We dont get up in morning hoping to break the town codes, which is not law!!! it is that, a town code. There are clients who will not be bothered with the code, and there is nothing you can do to change their minds. Most of the time, 95 percent of our clients follow the rules and codes and make everything go smoothly. Just like you i have to maintain a relationship with these people at town hall. So yes i follow the town code, ever for my own business. But again it is that 5 or 10 percent who want nothing to do with it. and those are the people i will ABSOLUTELY work with. I have dont my job, i have told them they have to follow the code. AGAIN I SUPPORT MY CLIENTS CHOICE!

 

[Stacey K]

If it's a new sign and they don't want to get a permit then make the sign and he can install it himself.

I don't run to get a permit for every little thing. New signs yes, replacing no. Our town does not police signage - but you never know if someone doesn't like your customer - or you - and rats you out to the city. It pays to have a good relationship with the city then they leave you alone or at least won't fine you.