Permit required??

[grampa dan]

Locally a businessman bought a life sized version of the Predator and put it out front of his business on the pedestal. He declared it art and not a sign.

Someone took offense and complained to city hall. They in turn sent out their bylaw enforcement officer who wrote up the offending business and fined him $200 and told him to remove the offending sign. The city's interpetation is that he never got a permit, a second business sign is in violation of their laws. Fall back position is that since the 'art' is on a permanent stand it needs to be engineered and installed under a permit. The businessman says he'll fight it.

But it seems they have him under the gun. The business is in a business improvement area of town which clearly requires application and permits for any changes or structures. They say sign or art it still requires a permit and could fine him $200 per day it remains. If it is art or a sign it has to go before a design review committee. They have the right to rule on whether something 'fits' into a certain area of the city.

Declaring our 'signs' as art has gotten us around some rather restrictive sign bylaws in the past - although not in this municipality.

I'll be watching this local on-going battle with great interest.

-grampa dan

 

[GVP]

The world's gone mad, I tell ya. I was recently reprimanded by the City here for not applying for portable sign permits for four signs we rented out. And who was the customer? Why, the City, of course. And I had checked with the department who rented them and was told no permits were needed...

 

[John L]

The world's gone mad, I tell ya. I was recently reprimanded by the City here for not applying for portable sign permits for four signs we rented out. And who was the customer? Why, the City, of course. And I had checked with the department who rented them and was told no permits were needed...

I'd really like to know the detail on this one. What type of portable signs?

 

[Just Another Sign Guy]

not a jab here Grampa Dan just an observation. over the years i have seen you mention that you aren't the regular sign shop and that you view the multi dimensional things you build in many cases as signs where as many other people wouldnt view them as signs. so why would a 3dimensional project designed to draw attention to a business not be subjected to code?

 

[Gino]

I totally understand the need for permits and meeting code.

Should this piece of artwork, sculpture, sign or anything else you want to call it falls.... who is responsible ??

No matter what you do inside your own building or house.... you need permits to make sure your kids or guests don't electrocute themselves, breathe bad fumes if your furnace was installed backwards or simply fall through floors if you built them wrong. However, that's for people trapped inside your house. How about putting some contraption outside that could be deemed quite dangerous and potentially lethal if not installed properly or securely. Who do you think the victim's family will go after....... whomever installed it wrong... and then the insurance company will say... we're not paying out.... he never should've had permission to put that out in the first place... and then you go to City Hall, where they tell you.... he did it on his own and we didn't do anything about it ?? Now, I ask you simply again..... who is responsible ??

 

[Pat Whatley]

Declaring our 'signs' as art has gotten us around some rather restrictive sign bylaws in the past - although not in this municipality.

Dan, while I love the absolute over-the-top creativity in the work you do working "around" the bylaws is often what makes the municipality make them so restrictive. Declaring the sign as art is almost like rubbing their noses in it.

 

[iSign]

very interesting topic... timely as well, because I just read about some flamingo in Baltimore or somewhere back East (I'll look for that link)

One thing we all know, in theory, many permits are to help ensure against faulty construction & unsafe consequences... but the majority are rubber stamped when the controlling entity sees a modicum of compliance to their control, along with the proper payment. Sure, some permitting processes include an inspection & evaluation of safety, but I'm sure just as many have no real effort to ensure safety, as long as compliance is met.

One of the biggest problems I see with sign permit requirements is the restrictions imposed on asthetics. From what I've seen of Dan's projects, one of them falling over is about as likely as one of them taking flight & setting sail on a sea of green... so any working around the by-laws would be done to circumvent asthetics restrictions, and create beauty & wonder outside the box that might have been drawn on some permit application by some bureaucrats who would be content with all signs fitting inside that box.

HERE is the story I mentioned...

 

[grampa dan]

As Doug mentioned we grossly over engineer the projects we build. If there is any doubt I will engage the services of a structural engineer.

Sign ordinances and bureaucrats in general would seek to have everybody conform. Creativity often suffers as a result. I would argue that when everybody's sign must look the same it's pretty hard to stand out. They would have the world be a boring place I choose to fight.

We live in a weird world where one complaint over something quite harmless can often have our city officials enforcing the bylaws. Meanwhile there's carnage in our streets taking place in broad daylight while they turn a blind eye.

-grampa dan

 

[Brandon708]

so barbershops need special sign permits for barber poles? Or cigar shops need sign permits for the wooden Indians they set outside there shops?

 

[Just Another Sign Guy]

i over engineer everything as well....as we all know everyone else does not.

the rules have to be established so that there are standards (just look where the lack of standards and self policing ourselves as an industry has gotten us), just because we police ourselves, as individuals as far as quality of craftsmanship goes does not mean we are or should be free of the rules everyone else must adhere to..as much as i would like to be...as much as we all would like to be. unfortunately there are many who will take the fastest cheapest route which is not always the safest.

i do not see how this limits 'creativity' to me that is a cop out..especially in this situation. the majority of the time there is a reason for the rules...if there is not rhyme or reason to the rules go through the channels to obtain permission to do what you want to do..that is an option..but just disregarding the law and looking for loopholes disappoints me and coming from you surprises me to be honest.

 

[grampa dan]

The sign bylaws and building laws in general in most places I have done business are pretty restrictive. The rules would seek to have everyone conform to maximum sizes, placement, sometimes even style, materials or colors. Here in our area building design, colors, landscaping, placement on the property, and just about everything else including signs is tightly regulated and has to go before a design review panel. I have been before many over the years that in my view have far too much power. Many of the folks who sit on these panels aren't qualified and aren't even elected but what they say goes.

The rules are often not close to fair and certainly are not evenly or fairly applied. Common sense goes out the window. It often is about fees and taxes.

To be truthful I have built a career on bending rules by often designing and building projects that follow the letter of the law while still doing the job that was intended. Signs by my definition encompasses anything that brings attention to my customers business, product or service. I seek to do it in non-offensive ways following the rules that would seek to have us build bland and conforming things.

It gives me great delight to see the 'officials' working hard after the fact tightening the rules seeking us to conform. These futile efforts merely create opportunities to be MORE creative in the future.

As the rules constantly change and constantly get more restrictive it is more challenging all the time. I'm up for the game and there is no shortage of customers willing to pay me for the privilege.

-grampa dan

 

[Just Another Sign Guy]

whole lot of carnage going on in yarrow these days?

the world is indeed a very frightening place...where professionals have to deal with rules and regulations.

you know darn well why these rules are in place and they aren't there because of people being overly creative in design (even though the end result may limit creativity in some situations), they are in place becaues of people being overly creative in doing piss poor work.

i have been in front of more municipality design boards and code enforcement committees than i can count or care to remember. when the rules simply don't make sense i have had no problem getting variances which in more than one instance has resulted in the regulations and restrictions being rewritten.

i constantly encourage every sign professional to get involved with your local government we are the people who 'they' should be consulting with to write codes that protect the public and protect our craft. how many get involved?... not many and the majority of those that i know who do get involved get involved after there is a problem not before.

i have yet to have a city that has not welcomed the insight and suggestions from professionals in the trade who want to clarify and help with regulations that will better the community.

for example historic districts that ban any material but wood for the signs. when their goal is to preserve the history of an area which in many cases benefits all of our businesses within that area. they simply don't want cheap plastic signs but what ends up happening is they are plagued with junky plywood signs that further degrade the area. i can not tell you how many HDU signs i have done in the most restrictive historic cities in the United States that have been granted variances and in the process the municipality has identified what they are trying to achieve by having clear, descriptive dialogue...they have no idea what HDU is and my point in mentioning this example is that by not having input from those in the industry with the knowledge to help them they write restrictions that simply are not effective.

i must be getting old because i have found it simply isnt that hard to play by the rules and when the rules truly don't make sense i have found it isnt that hard to get approval for breaking them.

 

[grampa dan]

As I get older I find I have far less tolerance and patience for attending senseless and long meetings and filling out endless forms. Life is far too short to spend it in this manner. The folks at city hall often forget they work for us, instead seeking to have us work for them. They will approve things IF we do the stupid paperwork, get useless engineering AND of course pay fees and taxes to them. They need the money to support their ever growing organization.

I recently did a sign that the owner insisted on having a permit for. It took a year to get (with due dilligence on our part) and with all the studies and engineering involved the permits alone cost $35,000. The meetings were endless and the paperwork piled up senselessly. It literally filled a 2" binder. While the permits, consultants, studies and engineering cost $35,000 the sign itself only cost $70,000 installed (not including the permits.)

All the red tape, studies, permits and meetings added NOTHING to the sign and changed nothing in the original design. The inspections by officials and the engineers were a joke as these turkeys never even came onsite but inspected from the road. They didn't want to get their shoes dirty.

Afterwards the owner asked me what we should do differently next time. I told him that in my experience it was far easier to get forgiveness than to get permission.

I have another project in design that has been two years in the approval process with plenty of pushing on our part to get it through in a timely manner. The city officials simply won't be rushed and se no need to make any sense at all. It's absolutely rediculous how difficult and costly permits and permissions are getting to be. And for all the regulation the world is not a better place.

-grampa dan

 

[Gino]

Ya know.... you guys are both talking about the finished project. Nice big colorful sign that meets codes with or without a variance, but what about the guy [or gal] that tackles a job they aren't equipped to do mentally or physically and listens to some of what you're saying here, dan ?? If they blindly follow your reasoning, they could kill themselves while hanging off a bucket or ladder by falling out since they didn't know they would've found that out by applying for a permit that asks those.... uh...... important questions.

I agree that it's a poor way to get permission to do some of the work we want to put up, but I get a little scared when some of the people here will respect anything an old timer says and uses it as gospel. They don't know the things and business the way you do. They could hurt themselves or someone else down the road when they thought they had it done right, but didn't have any instruction on what to do.

I really think you need to think about what YOU would do and be a little more consistent of obeying rules regardless of how stupid we think they are and giving people advice based on doing things right and not the highway method.

Again, I've done things the way you've mentioned, but I also know the ropes and what I can and cannot do or get away with.... but I also know the consequences for doing shoddy workmanship and what not to serve up as advice for other tender ears.... or eyes in this case.

 

[grampa dan]

The last thing I would do would be to cut a corner on the quality of a sign or project I design or build. My personal rule is that anything we can walk over or under requires engineering whether a permit is required or not. Often times I will do MORE than the engineers require. All projects we build that are engineered involve a discussion with the engineer of how they will be built and often the engineer follows my instructions and requests as our structures are often beyond the realm of their normal experience. This consultation often governs how something will be built and not just what it will be made of. This can save money AND make a project better. The reality is that not many engineers have actually built much in their careers.

My beef is not with the common sense regulations that protect our safety. I'm all for them.

The things I rally against and intentionally skirt by following the regulations to the letter (not necessarily in spirit) are things I believe our beaurocrats have no business trying to control - like the style of my building, the type of flowers I plant or the color or the design of my sign.

Many years ago in my foolishness I tried to get our city (not the one I live in now) to implement regulations that governed quality of signs... I soon learned that no one there was qualified to be the judge and anything I or others who might have been qualified to judge was biased on our narrow likes and dislikes. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. You can't regulate quality design. It's impossible.

I started this post about a life sized Predator statue. It certainly isn't my cup of tea and I really don't care for it personally but then again its not hurting anyone either. If the structure needs engineering the guy should be required to have it done properly in the interest of public safety. But the debate over whether its a sign or not should be muted in my view.

-grampa dan

 

[Rick]

Gosh I have so much to say, but it simply ain't worth it...

 

[Just Another Sign Guy]

i've yet to ever see any regulation in regards to quality of design ever.

i must be missing something here because to me it reads like you are all over the place.
but like rick so much to say but it simply ain;t worth it...