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Prepping Clients Mentally - Avoiding problems

Marlene

New Member
it all boils down to two kinds of customers, #1 wants a design, you talk about all the uses, who they want to target ya da, and they want you to design it. if they have ideas, it is only to help get to the right direction or to ask for a color change or some other simple imput #2 wants a design, but what they really want is a computer operator to pound out what they and their friends have come up with.
 

John Butto

New Member
Marlene's world

it all boils down to two kinds of customers, #1 wants a design, you talk about all the uses, who they want to target ya da, and they want you to design it. if they have ideas, it is only to help get to the right direction or to ask for a color change or some other simple imput #2 wants a design, but what they really want is a computer operator to pound out what they and their friends have come up with.
What ja cooking, good lookin.
 

Rodi

New Member
It goes as low as fonts... spent my whole life, loving, learning, working them... to come up with strong visual identity for people so they can differentiate themselves from the crowd. What do they come back with.... Garamond Avant Garde... but they come in wanting to be different, yet they sheep/crowd themselves out of business...

Sometimes I long for the days of Optima.... it has been a while since anyone asked for it!


Oh yeah... always end up centering everything!
 

Joe Diaz

New Member
I think Dan summed it up pretty good.

I wanted to comment on this though:
I know design is relative, everyone has different tastes...
I personally think it helps to get in the mindset that design is NOT subjective. Art may be subjective, a theme or the style of a given design could even be subjective. But design has rules. A design is created to achieve a specific goal or set of goals. If those rules aren't followed, a design is less likely to achieve those goals. Bad kerning (or keming) can turn click into dick, FLICKS into F%$*S and "The pen is broken" into "The pe^*s broken". Bad contrast can kill the visibility of the design. etc... etc...


Any part of the design that could be considered subjective, like the colors you use or the theme of the layout, is subjective to not your client but to your client's clients. Your client, who let's say owns a fast food BBQ restaurant, might say green is his favorite color, however the majority of people, when looking at a layout advertising food, tend to associate warm colors like red and orange, with BBQ flavored foods. Red white and blue means something different for us in the U.S. as it does for someone in let's say Brazil.

Your client may personally like a distressed grungy look, but if he or she owns a car wash that style of design says everything but "clean". So a designer needs to be aware of trends, and like Dan says make the customers target audience happy, not necessarily the customer. If you are worried about making a customer happy, keep this in mind: a good design will help that customer be successful, which will make them much happier than having their way with a font choice.

I guess what it all boils down to is experience. We do this for a living, they don't. We think, eat, drink design, they don't. At first it took a while for me to get the nerve to tell customers how it is, but I have found that most of the time it pays to point out who is more qualified to make design decisions. To help make that pill easier for them to swallow, I assure them that my goal is to help them do well, not to just get my way on something. It's not arrogance or ego that drives me. I have nothing to gain by just getting my way at the expense of their bushiness. However, if they are successful, I've established a strong professional relationship that will likely result in more work from them. Part of them already knows this. Why else would they hire you.

One thing I like to do is ask questions about their customers and the customers they hope to attract. I want to try to crawl inside their customer's head more so then the their head. I also ask questions about where they hope to take their business, and how they plan on using the logo in the near and distant future. This helps get the client and myself in the right mindset. One where we are discussing things where their knowledge maters, more so than what style lettering should I use.

That said, you will inevitably run into a few clients that won't listen to reason. I've come to the conclusion that they haven't hired me for my expertise, they want to hire me to act as the link between them and the computer or sketch pad. They want me to act as the mouse and keyboard operator. I honestly believe it is in their nature, and at a certain point you will lose money by fighting an unwinnable battle. I try my best to help them, but if my hands are tied, all I can do is help them create what they think will work and send them a bill.
 

Joe Diaz

New Member
One more thing related to design not being subjective. If you have a problem with clients allowing their sister-in-law to be involved in the decision making process, Id just be honest with them. Tell them no offence to your relatives, friends or coworkers, but they aren't looking at the design and judging it as your potential customers, they were handed a design and more or less asked to find something wrong with it. And they will take that as a challenge and do everything they can to find something wrong with it, even if it is insignificant or wrong. Besides not being professional designers or fully understanding design trends, the only thing they will most likely comment on are parts of the design that don't agree with their personal tastes.
 

CanuckSigns

Active Member
One more thing related to design not being subjective. If you have a problem with clients allowing their sister-in-law to be involved in the decision making process, Id just be honest with them. Tell them no offence to your relatives, friends or coworkers, but they aren't looking at the design and judging it as your potential customers, they were handed a design and more or less asked to find something wrong with it. And they will take that as a challenge and do everything they can to find something wrong with it, even if it is insignificant or wrong. Besides not being professional designers or fully understanding design trends, the only thing they will most likely comment on are parts of the design that don't agree with their personal tastes.

This :goodpost:
 

WildWestDesigns

Active Member
At least y'all have it easier when y'all get to the clients from the beginning. When I get clients that already have a busy design that it's obvious that the "designer" doesn't know production values for outputs other than web and print, I have the joy of telling them that:


"No, you can't cram all that in a hat design. Yes, I know it looks good on business cards at a much smaller size, but thread, needle, and the machine have physical minimum sizes that ink does not."

I even remember one member on here was irritated by the fact that embroidery digitizers had to change their design to make it work. The mere fact of having Ai and designing within that program was sufficient enough for being able to do a design that would translate no matter what (I do not believe that member is still here though).

Trust me, it's easier to get them in the beginning then it is after they have something (no matter who did it). I'm not saying it's a picnic, but it is easier to prep them mentally at the beginning.
 

John Butto

New Member
I have a simple mind. Joe Diaz, Neato and the rest of the designers on here. Not everyone is going to like everything you do, you know that. Don't care how much you try to talk about it with all the advice and gimmicks you have devised or thought about. You make it too much as a business with end results of making money. Just enjoy yourself doing what most people dream of. If someone does not like your work, try harder, it is not like working in a Pizza place, Deli, or unloading baggage off of a plane when it is snowing, now that is work.
 

neato

New Member
Joe

Thanks for your post (and PM too). There is lots of great advice in your 2 posts above. Now I just have to let it all soak in.

This is great:
If you have a problem with clients allowing their sister-in-law to be involved in the decision making process, Id just be honest with them. Tell them no offence to your relatives, friends or coworkers, but they aren't looking at the design and judging it as your potential customers, they were handed a design and more or less asked to find something wrong with it. And they will take that as a challenge and do everything they can to find something wrong with it, even if it is insignificant or wrong. Besides not being professional designers or fully understanding design trends, the only thing they will most likely comment on are parts of the design that don't agree with their personal tastes.

Exactly. You put my scattered thoughts into one neat paragraph.

And John, it's not about not enjoying your work. This is a fun industry, and I love designing for people. And I see your point. But at the same time, my job is to help my clients, not hurt them. My work is my profession. It pays my bills. I'm helping other people to pay theirs by helping them attract customers. There is some responsibility in that. That's why as designers, I think we also need to be consultants too.
 

Marlene

New Member
I personally think it helps to get in the mindset that design is NOT subjective. Art may be subjective, a theme or the style of a given design could even be subjective. But design has rules. A design is created to achieve a specific goal or set of goals. If those rules aren't followed, a design is less likely to achieve those goals. Bad kerning (or keming) can turn click into dick, FLICKS into F%$*S and "The pen is broken" into "The pe^*s broken". Bad contrast can kill the visibility of the design. etc... etc...


Any part of the design that could be considered subjective, like the colors you use or the theme of the layout, is subjective to not your client but to your client's clients. Your client, who let's say owns a fast food BBQ restaurant, might say green is his favorite color, however the majority of people, when looking at a layout advertising food, tend to associate warm colors like red and orange, with BBQ flavored foods. Red white and blue means something different for us in the U.S. as it does for someone in let's say Brazil.

Your client may personally like a distressed grungy look, but if he or she owns a car wash that style of design says everything but "clean". So a designer needs to be aware of trends, and like Dan says make the customers target audience happy, not necessarily the customer. If you are worried about making a customer happy, keep this in mind: a good design will help that customer be successful, which will make them much happier than having their way with a font choice.

:goodpost: it is hard, even with our fellow sign people to get that the design/logo/layout isn't for you, it is for who you want to sell to. we see all the time on the site people who love to surf putting a surfer on their layout for their van. we see colors, fonts and images that are personal favorites but do nothing to sell the business. it is hard amoung ourselves to get that accross to people. think about how many threads with logos or van layouts we have seen where the OP gets ticked off because people tell them it isn't a good idea. I think more of us need to develope and learn the purpose of a logo/sign design/ layout as it only makes it harder to explain to a customer why we could care less that their favorite color is blue and they love cats.
 

SD&F

New Member
My two cents: Most people think designing is easy and that what they put on paper to you is artwork.....NOT. You will never get around those customers, I don't care who you are or what plan you have in place. This is one luxury you will have to do without.
 

peavey123

New Member
What a coincidence. Was reading this thread yesterday after I sent a construction logo off to a client for approval. They came back today with a request to change the colour scheme to yellow, red and brown. Greeeaatt!!

So, I actually had the courage to tell the customer why this is not the best idea. I used an analogy something along the lines of "If your customer wanted you to use improper materials to do a job could you consciously do that? because I can't consciously let you use these colours for this logo."

It worked!! Which is good because I was scared of coming off like a prick. I'm more of a think-after I speak kinda guy so that's always in the back of my head. :S

I'm just glad I didn't have to destroy what was a good logo. I know Joe said he has no ego and isn't designing for himself, but he already has a great reputation! I'm still trying to build mine up so admittedly, ego has a small part in this. Mainly just to put better work out than the next guy in order to get more business in the door.
 

JoeBoomer

New Member
Finally

I've been looking everywhere for these....
 

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perimage

New Member
trust the graphic designer

i tell customers to trust the guy who has the experience, which would be the graphic designer.

I remind customers if your transmission breaks sure you can go to the parts store and buy the parts and try to fix the transmission yourself or ask your family to help, but wouldnt it be better to bring it to the transmission guy who has the experience and worked on many transmissions versus trying to figure it out yourself, potentially loosing lots of time and making errors that will cost you more than it is worth, especially if you never worked on transmissions before.
 

Gino

Premium Subscriber
Here's something many of you are not taking into consideration........ :rolleyes:

How many designs and layouts have we seen posted here by so-called professionals that are completely hideous ??

From bad spacing, to poor fonts to just horrid color combinations and they call themselves professional designers or graphix artists..... they are among us and in great numbers.

All the top notch designers here have a leg to stand on and can take your mightier than thou stance, but how many customers are ripped off daily by p!ss poor designers and they can't execute either ??

Perhaps, that's why so many customers need to add their 2¢.... cause they've been burnt by people in this trade who simply shouldn't be here.

I'm sure anyone here can think of many of these people instantly who have no business calling themselves designers, but keep on doing it. :doh:
 

WildWestDesigns

Active Member
I remind customers if your transmission breaks sure you can go to the parts store and buy the parts and try to fix the transmission yourself or ask your family to help, but wouldnt it be better to bring it to the transmission guy who has the experience and worked on many transmissions versus trying to figure it out yourself, potentially loosing lots of time and making errors that will cost you more than it is worth, especially if you never worked on transmissions before.

I hope that you don't ask that to a person that has a 6.0 PSD. Shops that actually know how to fix those are few and far between and if you find one they are a keeper.
 

Jillbeans

New Member
I am dealing with something like this today.
A client wants all lower case letters...OK fine.
But they email me a font they like which only comes in all-caps.
I tediously rebuild it into lower case letters for the name, and with some tweaks, they approve it. Tweaks meaning six emails back and forth.
(it's ugly as a hatful of @ssholes)
Now they want EVERYTHING every word on this sign to be in that font...but in lower case.
I'm going to try and lead them into a different font for the phone numbers etc but I have a feeling I'll be building a whole new ugly lower case alphabet.
 

Joe Diaz

New Member
I have a simple mind. Joe Diaz, Neato and the rest of the designers on here. Not everyone is going to like everything you do, you know that. Don't care how much you try to talk about it with all the advice and gimmicks you have devised or thought about. You make it too much as a business with end results of making money. Just enjoy yourself doing what most people dream of. If someone does not like your work, try harder, it is not like working in a Pizza place, Deli, or unloading baggage off of a plane when it is snowing, now that is work.

Yes not everyone is going to like everything you do, And yes this is a fun job that I for one thoroughly enjoy, But at a certain point in someones career, when they spend day after day stewing over this stuff, they need to start being a bit more aggressive and stand up to their clients who don't have the same level of knowledge about this stuff. It can be done in a polite way and won't take away from enjoying oneself. In fact, I feel like if I can get my "gimmicks" to work, I can get the customer to trust me, respect my opinion a bit more, and give me more freedom to do the best job I can. If I can do all that then my job is even more enjoyable. Doing the best work you can is as fun as it gets and it's beyond rewarding.

Whereas I can except that not every customer is going to like my first attempt at their design, I also know that not one single design on the face of this planet has ever pleased every singe person to the same extent. The goal isn't to please everyone. That is impossible. The goal is to please as many of the right people as you can. Turning a design loose and basically asking your relatives and friends to find something wrong with it and suggest changes, will create more work for a designer as they attempt to incorporate everyone's 2 cents, this is certain, but what it won't necessarily do is result in a better design.

That being said, it's more than possible to gain some insight from critiques and improve a design, so I've always been open to what the client and even their relatives, friends and co workers, say, however I make sure to point out that not every idea is a good one, and 95 times out of 100 when you ask someone what they think, their goal is to change something just to change something, and if they don't know about design, the chances that their idea is a good one, is diminished.

Yes we all start somewhere and there are a lot of bad designers out there, but if they are willing to learn, then they will improve beyond what the average person can bring to the table, and at that point they should start steering their designs and their customers in the right direction.
 
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