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Printing in grey scale & vectoring

Discussion in 'Corel' started by KPC, Sep 13, 2006.

  1. KPC

    KPC Member

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    Equipment: Roland pc-600<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p></o:p>
    Software: Corel Draw 12<o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    I'm having a problem printing part of an image in black (grayscale). <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    Let’s say the background of the image is a sunset (full of color) and overtop of the sunset there is black lettering containing a phone number. <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    When I enter the phone number, for the fill, I select grey scale, and move the slider the whole way to the bottom which is dark black. <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    So now I have the colorful sunset as the background with the black (grayscale) phone number over top. <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    When I go to print it out, it prints the sunset and the phone number in CMY. Then after the entire image is printed in CMY, the printer goes back to just the phone number, and gives it a top coat in pure black. <o:p></o:p>
    I can't figure out why it doesn't skip over the phone number portion of the image while it is printing in CMY, then come back and fill in the missing area for the phone number in black. <o:p></o:p>
    Now, if I export the image and save it as a .eps and then use the Roland RCC to print, and select it to print in grayscale, it ends up printing the entire image in grey scale, not just the phone number. <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    Ultimately, I'm trying to get just the sunset to print in color, and it to print the phone number only in black, not CMY for the phone number then cover that up with black. Just print the phone number in black from the beginning, so that it isn't wasting color for no good reason. <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    Second question, if a vectored image is created and exported as a .JPG, if you close out of the program (Corel draw 12). <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    Then reopen the program and import the .JPG, isn't the vectored image no longer vectored, because .jpg isn't a "rich" enough extension (for lack of a better word). <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    In order to keep the vectored image "vectored" it would have to be saved as a .eps, correct?

    <o:p></o:p>
    Thanks in advance :)
    <o:p></o:p>
     
    Tags:
  2. Fred Weiss

    Fred Weiss Merchant Member

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    The color management used in a RIP will remix everything it sees based on the color profiles being used. Your 100% black is simply being remixed to what the particular color profile reinterprets it to be in CMYK.

    The only way to really get your black to print on its own is to use Spot Black instead of Process Black. You may want to check to see if there is someway to do that with your setup. I do it with ease when setting up jobs for my Gerber Edge printer.

    It's good work practice to always save your master file in the native format of the program that created it. Therefore, you should save a master file in CDR format. This will preserve every aspect of the setup should future needs arise.

    For using the file with other applications, many people use EPS for vectors. PDF is probably going to eventually replace it as the format of preference for everything. For raster bitmaps, JPG has some pluses and minuses and many prefer TIF or PSD for their image files.
     
  3. KPC

    KPC Member

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    Fred, thanks for the really quick reply. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    I understand the second two paragraphs of your reply, but the first two are flying over my head. <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    I figured, that when I designed the image, by setting just the lettering to grayscale black, it would tell the printer, to ultimately print the lettering using just the black ribbon. <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    I don't follow what you said about spot black vs. process black. <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    Is that something that I could find in the help section of Corel, or is that a Roland thing?<o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    I'm trying my best to research and learn this program on my own, but this has been somewhat of a hang-up. <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    Thanks again for the quick reply :thumb:
    <o:p> </o:p>
     
  4. bob

    bob Major Contributor

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    earth
    What are you using or a RIP? How are you exporting form Corel to this RIP?

    I do this sort of thing all the time using Corel and Flexi's RIP. Set up your image and then export it as .eps or publish it to a PDF. This will preserve vector data as vector data. The set your rendering intents to perceptual for bitmaps and saturation or spot color, if you have that option, for vector, text, and everything else. This should print the bitmap as CMYK process and the text as a spot colot black or whatever color you make it.
     
  5. KPC

    KPC Member

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    Here is something that I pulled out of the help section of the RCC program for the Roland.

    I don't know if this even pertains to what you said, but I figured it was worth while posting, if someone can make sense out of it.


    <DIR><DIR>
    ICC Input Profile ​


    [FONT=JEIIBO+Arial,Arial]
    Input profiles are used to convert the image into a neutral color space. Once the image is in a neutral color space, the output profile is used to convert the image into the color space of the output device. To add an ICC input profile from another source, click the ​
    [/FONT]
    Add [FONT=JEIIBO+Arial,Arial]button. Three types of ICC input profiles can be specified: [/FONT]​
    [FONT=JEIIBO+Arial,Arial]

    </DIR></DIR>
    [/FONT]

      1. [*]CMYK ICC Input Profile
    <DIR><DIR><DIR>[FONT=JEIIBO+Arial,Arial]
    The CMYK input profile applies to all elements of a job that are in CMYK color mode. If your image is in the CMYK color mode, then your file was previously separated for output to a specific output device. Whenever is possible, use the profile used for separation in your design application as the CMYK input profile. Try using similar profiles or profiles for common ink sets (such as CMYK SWOP, or High End SWOP) if you do not have the matching profile. If you are trying to match Pantone colors, it may also be appropriate to select High End SWOP as your CMYK input profile, because Pantone Process CMYK values were designed for output to the SWOP ink set. ​


    </DIR></DIR></DIR>
    [/FONT]

      1. [*]RGB ICC Input Profile
    <DIR><DIR><DIR>[FONT=JEIIBO+Arial,Arial]
    The RGB ICC input profile applies to all elements of a job that are in RGB color mode. An RGB input profile can be for either a monitor or a scanner. If you scanned your file without color correcting it, it is best to select your scanner calibration as the RGB input profile. If you have done any on-screen color correction, you should select your monitor as the RGB input profile. If you do not have a monitor profile, it is generally safe to select the default ICC input profile. The Generic profile assumes that you have a Trinitron monitor with a temperature of D65 and a gamma of 1.8. Selecting the correct RGB source will insure that the RGB data you see on-screen will be matched to the output printer. ​


    </DIR></DIR></DIR>
    [/FONT]

      1. [*]Gray ICC Input Profile
    <DIR><DIR><DIR>[FONT=JEIIBO+Arial,Arial]
    The Gray ICC input profile applies to all elements of a job that are in Grayscale color mode. This may refer to either a grayscale scanner or a grayscale monitor. ​


    </DIR></DIR></DIR>
    [/FONT]<DIR><DIR>
    ICC Output Profile ​
    </DIR></DIR>

      1. [*]ICC Output Profile
    <DIR><DIR><DIR>[FONT=JEIIBO+Arial,Arial]
    Output profiles are created for the combination of ink, media, resolution and dither type of your output device. When selecting a profile, be sure to select the profile that matches these criteria. For output devices that print at multiple resolutions, RIP Software provides profiles for each of those resolutions. Choosing a profile with the wrong resolution will severely affect the output quality. Profiles with different dither types will not greatly affect your output; however, they may cause slight shifts in color. To add an ICC output profile from another source, click the ​
    [/FONT]Add [FONT=JEIIBO+Arial,Arial]button. Click the [/FONT]Info [FONT=JEIIBO+Arial,Arial]button for information pertaining to the ICC output profile that has been chosen under [/FONT]Profile[FONT=JEIIBO+Arial,Arial].

    </DIR></DIR></DIR>
      1. [/FONT]
        [*]Bitmap/Vector Rending Intent
    <DIR><DIR><DIR>[FONT=JEIIBO+Arial,Arial]
    Before a file can be RIPed, its ICC profile must be selected so that the RGB color space of the file can be mapped or translated into to CMYK colorspace. How the colorspace gets mapped is determined by the color rendering intent that you select. The rendering intent selected in the Bitmap rendering field will be applied to bitmap images in your job file. The rendering intent selected in the Vector rendering intent field will be applied to vector objects in your file. Choose from one of the following rendering intents: ​
    </DIR></DIR></DIR>
    1. <DIR><DIR>
      1. [/FONT]
        [*]Perceptual
      </DIR></DIR>
    <DIR><DIR><DIR><DIR><DIR>[FONT=JEIIBO+Arial,Arial]
    This intent is best for photographic images. Colors outside of the output device's gamut are either clipped or compressed to fit the output device’s color space ​
    </DIR></DIR></DIR></DIR></DIR>
    [/FONT]26
    1. <DIR><DIR>

      1. [*]Relative Colorimetric
      </DIR></DIR>
    <DIR><DIR><DIR><DIR><DIR>[FONT=JEIIBO+Arial,Arial]
    This intent is best for images, such as logos, where the original image needs to match the output. Colors that fall outside of the output device's gamut are clipped. This method may reduce the total number of colors available. The white point of Relative Colorimetric is always zero. ​
    </DIR></DIR></DIR></DIR></DIR>
    1. <DIR><DIR>
      1. [/FONT]
        [*]Saturation
      </DIR></DIR>
    <DIR><DIR><DIR><DIR><DIR>[FONT=JEIIBO+Arial,Arial]
    This intent is best for graphic images, such as vector art, where vivid colors are more important than true color matching. Colors outside of the output device's gamut are mapped to colors at the extent of the gamut's saturation. Color's that fall within the gamut of the output device are shifted closer to the gamut's saturation extent. This rendering intent may also be used to boost colors within a photographic image. ​
    </DIR></DIR></DIR></DIR></DIR>
    1. <DIR><DIR>
      1. [/FONT]
        [*]Absolute Colorimetric
      </DIR></DIR>
    <DIR><DIR><DIR><DIR><DIR>[FONT=JEIIBO+Arial,Arial]
    This intent is similar to Relative Colorimetric, but has a different white point value. Absolute Colorimetric represents colors relative to a fixed white point value of D50. For example, the white of paper A will be simulated when printing on paper B. This intent is best for color proofing. ​
    </DIR></DIR></DIR></DIR></DIR>
    1. <DIR><DIR>
      1. [/FONT]
        [*]Spot Color
      </DIR></DIR>
    <DIR><DIR><DIR><DIR><DIR>[FONT=JEIIBO+Arial,Arial]
    This intent was created to supplement the Saturation intent. Spot Color maps colors similarly to the Saturation rendering intent, but Spot Color rendering intent produces the greatest saturation possible, and should not be used with photographic images. ​
    </DIR></DIR></DIR>
    [/FONT]
    Info ​
    [FONT=JEIIBO+Arial,Arial]
    Clicking this button displays the Profile Properties dialog. This window displays detailed information of the selected output profile (media name, ink name and print modes). Use this to check whether the selected profile matches your media. ​
    [/FONT]
    Color Mode ​
    [FONT=JEIIBO+Arial,Arial]
    If your output device supports multiple color modes, then you can select one of the supported color modes here. ​
    </DIR></DIR>
    [/FONT]
     
  6. KPC

    KPC Member

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    Hello Bob,

    I'm still in the process of learning this equipment and software.

    What I've been doing, is creating the image in Corel.

    Then exporting the image as a .eps to a folder on my desktop.

    Then using the Roland RCC program, I point the program to the folder on my desktop that contains the .eps file, upload the .eps file into the RCC program, then using the transfer button in the RCC program, it sends the .eps file directly to the PC-600.

    Let me know if this help out.

    Thanks for the replies :thumb:
     
  7. Pro Signs & Graphix

    Pro Signs & Graphix Very Active Member

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    You are inadvertently skipping one of the most important aspects of printing - the understanding of color. This is not a Corel nor a Roland "thing". It is more of a "law of nature".

    Before you burn up any more of your ribbons, go back and read as much info as you can on color. Specifically using the words process and spot.

    The subject can get way to technical to try and explain here without some basis of knowledge.
     
  8. Fred Weiss

    Fred Weiss Merchant Member

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    What you may also want to look at is "mapping" of spot colors. It may be possible for you to assign a spot color in Corel and have your RIP software see it as such and give you the end result you want. Every application (program) that does this, does it differently.

    If CorelDRAW won't do it then you may want to look at getting into an application like FlexiSign Pro or SignLab if it is really important to you ... but that is a solution that will set you back more than a couple of bucks.
     
  9. KPC

    KPC Member

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    This morning, I had just a few minutes of time and I did a quick search for "process and spot" and it didn't bring up a whole lot of info.

    When I get a little time later this evening, I'll try to do some research on "mapping" of spot colors and see what that brings up.

    Thanks for the replies and I'll try to get some more research done on my part this evening, and let you know if I run into any other snags.
     
  10. bob

    bob Major Contributor

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    earth
    Ok, here's a recipe that you can follow and have understanding come along later. You don't have to map spot colors or anything like that, just follow along here...

    1. Create the image in Corel. I assume that you're using a bitmap for your background and setting black text over that. Fine, so far so good. The bitmap is a bitmap and the text is vector information. Just what we want. Make sure that the black of the text is 0CMY and 100K, just to be sure.

    2. Export the image in a format that preserves vector information. That would be EPS or PDF in your case.

    3. Import the EPS or PDF file into your printing siftware and, this is the critical part, set the rendering intents to perceptual for bitmap and spot color for everything else. This is what will produce exactly the effect for which you're looking. Input profiles and all of that will not have any effect on this, just the rendering intents.

    4. Print the thing and, lo, everything that is not a bitmap will be printed in spot color. No mapping, no special dispensation, no nothing. Just properly specified rendering intents.
     
  11. Fred Weiss

    Fred Weiss Merchant Member

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    Excellent reply Bob. :thumb:
     
  12. signage

    signage Major Contributor

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    Process is cyan, magenta, yellow with or without black. These colors produce the colors you see on print.

    Spot is just on color of ink/ribbon etc. (IE: Kelly Green or signal red).
     
  13. KPC

    KPC Member

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    Alright, I've been doing some research on my own about the spot vs. process colors. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    Is it true that you can only print in spot colors with a vectored image? <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    I'm going to use a very simple example to try to explain the problem that I'm having. This example has no relevance to the image that I'm printing, but the reason I use it is because it should be relatively easy to understand. <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    In this example, I have a newspaper article out of the Sunday paper that is a page long and in the center of the print; there is a picture of a full color motorcycle. <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    We're going to say that I want to take this newspaper article and make it 4 times its original size and print it onto vinyl. (Again, this is just hypothetical, stick with me LOL)<o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    If I grab a newspaper article, place it into my scanner, scan the image and open scanned image into Corel, then do nothing to the image itself besides stretch it to be 4 times larger and draw a CutContour box around the outside of the image, and send it to the printer. The problem is that all of the BLACK lettering of the newspaper article is being printed using process colors. <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    It prints CMY for all of the letters, and then it covers up the cmy with black. <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    Now, because this is a non-vectored image, the only way I could see it being possible to have the printer, print the lettering using only spot colors, would be to draw a outline around the outside of the motorcycle. <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    The outline would not touch the motorcycle itself, nor would it touch the lettering of the article. <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    Then, draw another outline around the entire article itself. Not touching any of the lettering. <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    Then somehow being able to tell the printer, to print everything on the OUTSIDE of the inner circle and the INSIDE of the outer circle in SPOT black. Remember, the entire article is all black, besides the full color motorcycle in the center. <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    And instructing the printer to print everything on the INSIDE of the inner circle using process colors. <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    That way, when the entire .jpg image prints out, it prints the motorcycle in process colors and the rest of the article in spot black. <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    Remember, the font isn't able to be manipulated, because it isn't a vector image. It is nothing more than a scanned .jpg image of the actual paper article out of the Sunday newspaper. <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    Thanks for taking the time to read this. I know that it isn't the easiest to read but I don't know how to explain it without being able to see it in person. <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    Thanks again!!

    EDIT:<o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p>I was just on the Oracal website and came across this image. Unbelieveable because the example I used above about the newpaper article and motorcycle is so similar to this picture below. </o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p>So if I were to use this picture below as my example, I would want everything besides the brown coffee to be printed in spot black. The brown coffee would be printed in process colors. Seeing how this is a standard .jpg non-vectored image, how do I go about telling the printer what parts of this image should be printed in process or spot colors. </o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p>[​IMG]</o:p>
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2006
  14. Fred Weiss

    Fred Weiss Merchant Member

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    If your software is capable of assigning a spot color to a raster image than you can do it. I can do it with my Gerber software. There, with any bitmap or vector, I have my choice between assigning CMYK or spot. If I assign spot to an image file, it will still retain the different levels of shading that exist.

    A few pointers on what you want to do:

    • Don't enlarge your image after scanning if you can help it. Size reduction is fine but enlargement leads to pixelation and other quality issues. You should scan at the PPI you intend to use in your print.
    • Understand that there is a huge difference in scanning a halftoned image versus using a continuous tone image. Become familiar with your scanner software's "descreening" capabilities.
    • When you scan, you have the option to set the color mode to RGB color, grayscale or bitmap. For this example, you should probably scan in grayscale.
    • The effect of having isolated color on a grayscale image is a prepress effect achieved in your software.
     
  15. signage

    signage Major Contributor

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    You have to create a vector if the image you want to print in spot colors.
     
  16. KPC

    KPC Member

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    Fred, the idea of scanning the image and enlarging it was just an example. I very much appreciate your explenation of the enlarging and I will keep that in mind for the future.

    However, to keep it short and to the point, my question is as simple as if I wanted to take the .jpg image from the oracal website and print it onto vinyl, how do I get the black to print using just spot black and the brown of the coffee print in process colors.

    That way I'm not wasting all of that ink and time, printing the whole image in process colors just because of the brown coffee.

    If I told the printer to print the entire image in greyscale, then the coffee would be black, not brown.

    Also, you said about the software being able to do it or not, do you know by any chance if Corel Draw 12 allows the user to assign specific points within the image to be printed in either process or spot colors.

    Thanks!! :smile:
     
  17. Pro Signs & Graphix

    Pro Signs & Graphix Very Active Member

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    The short answer is "no". Don't take offense (because it is not meant that way), but what you are trying to achieve is currently beyond your abilities. In order to achieve your objective you will need to learn vectorization, as far as Corel is concerned.

    Vectorizing a photo has tremendous learning curve, and is not easily mastered - even by those that have been doing it for years.

    We understand what you are saying, and what you are trying to achieve but you need to understand that aside from the required ability, many have spent thousands of dollars for various software - to assist in achieving the same goals.

    As for the ribbon waste, that was one of the biggest gripes for Roland's machine, and also one of the reasons the machine is expensive to operate. Wait until ribbons just break for the hell of it - another known issue with Roland's PC.
     
  18. javila

    javila Active Member

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    He could create two images(one colors, one grayscale/black), layer them in illustrator, and save them as an eps, right?
     
  19. KPC

    KPC Member

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    Pro Signs, let me thank you for the great reply.

    Not many times do I like to accept (it can't be done) but in this case, it truly seems that is the case.

    Since purchasing this machine, I have found out that the ribbon technology is outdated, but then again, the reason I purchased this machine wasn't for doing really large printing.

    However, even with doing small stickers and the like, I noticed that the printer would use color even on black areas.

    I felt this was a little pointless, even on a small 2" circular sitcker. Not only did it take 3-4 times the time (cmy -then finally K) but it was just wasting ink (or ribbon).


    So from what it sounds like, even the best many tens of thousand dollar printers still battle the same problem as my old pc-600.

    The only difference is that the newer machines print all colors on 1 pass of the head, so the time that it takes for the machine to change between ribbons isn't a factor, plus these new machines have something on the lines of a big ink tank that is filled up relatively cheap.

    But then again, there is quite a difference in price from what I paid to the newer top of the line solvent ink machines. Considering I don't pull a profit with my machine, it was hard to justify a $15,000 machine that is used only a few times a month.

    I guess, I'll just accept the fact that the ribbons are expensive and if I need to print something really big, I'll just contract someone with a solvent ink machine because the fee to have them print it is probably less than just the cost of doing it myself.

    :smile:
     
  20. Outline Graphics

    Outline Graphics Member

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    I've done some research and read up on this. If I read the article correctly...Roland claims a driver rollback can fix this issue in some cases. Also, I've read humidity (if memory serves) can cause that to happen too.

    Thought I'd throw that in there :)
     
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