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Printing like Summa

W

WestcoastSigns

New Member
Warning: total newbie here.

I've been looking at the thermal vs inkjet through the threads. For the decal biz I would be doing I thought a versacamm would work best as I loved the printer/cut feature but decals don't stand up to solvents. Colours were fading. Don't want the extra work of laminating. The thermal prints that the sales person did off the Edge held up but didn't like the extra work of cutting and changing out each foil.

Then I find out about the Summa in this forum and its thermal AND cutting. Sounds like what I need as I don't have to change out the foils for each colour like the edge. Some decals are finer artwork so will have to test that out.

Is there any other machines like the Summa in thermal that I should check out? Whenever thermal printing is discussed,it's always Edge or Summa mentioned.

Thanks in advance.
 
Fred Weiss

Fred Weiss

Merchant Member
Among thermal printers, Gerber and Summa are pretty much it.

There are pros and cons to each approach. The Summa has size and a built in cutter (not necessarily a benefit). The Gerber has a well developed aftermarket offering an overwhelmingly greater choice of materials at much better prices. The Gerber has a substantially greater user base and distribution network so help and support is much more readily available.

The ribbon changing is your labor for which you are being paid while the automatic changing is Summa's ribbons for which they are being paid in the form of much higher prices. The vinyl you are using in the Summa is very limited and higher in price due to lack of competition. The foils, vinyl and specialty films for the Gerber come from any number of manufacturers and resellers so competitive prices make the decals one produces much more attractive to customers.

Have you asked yourself why the user base for the Gerber Edge is measured in the many tens of thousands while the Summa has a user base well below 10,000?
 
chopper

chopper

New Member
I know that Fred is a Gerber user, and I have had friends that have a summa,
I had a summa in the past,
I just want you to know that summa, recommends that you laminate your prints as well, I do not know if Gerber also requires it but the rule of thumb is if the print is going to be exposed to the elements, and abrasion (like truck doors etc.) the print thermal or ink needs to be laminated,
I know there are differing opinions on this and take it for what its worth,
the real advantage for the thermal is the ink will not dry up in the print heads since it does not use ink, so if the printer isn't used for long periods of time this is an advantage, how ever thermal printing be it a Gerber or a summa are more durable than an ink jet with out lamination, so if you want to cheat the system then thermal is better.
also the thermal printers have a higher cost of printing, the consumables cost more like the foils etc..
I am not advocating one over the other you need to chose which is better for your needs,
//chopper
 
Fred Weiss

Fred Weiss

Merchant Member
chopper said:
I know that Fred is a Gerber user, and I have had friends that have a summa,
I had a summa in the past,
I just want you to know that summa, recommends that you laminate your prints as well, I do not know if Gerber also requires it but the rule of thumb is if the print is going to be exposed to the elements, and abrasion (like truck doors etc.) the print thermal or ink needs to be laminated,
I know there are differing opinions on this and take it for what its worth,
the real advantage for the thermal is the ink will not dry up in the print heads since it does not use ink, so if the printer isn't used for long periods of time this is an advantage, how ever thermal printing be it a Gerber or a summa are more durable than an ink jet with out lamination, so if you want to cheat the system then thermal is better.
also the thermal printers have a higher cost of printing, the consumables cost more like the foils etc..
I am not advocating one over the other you need to chose which is better for your needs,
//chopper
Click to expand...

Gerber, Duracoat and Zeronine all offer clear, printable foils for UV/Abrasion protection. It's a decent compromise between no protection and laminating and it preserves your workflow, which is to say you don't have to interrupt your printing and cutting with laminating on a different machine. I'm not familiar enough with Summa supplies to know if they also offer a printable protection solution or not, but we use it with our Gerber for any outdoor applications and have found it to add at least 1.5 years to the life of a print.
 
W

WestcoastSigns

New Member
I guess one of my fears is not lining up the registration on the cutter correctly and destroying what I just printed. The Summa seems more idiot proof if you know what I mean.

Fred - good point about the ink and labour costs. One using more labour while the other uses more ink.

Some small runs I'll be doing will be VERY small at 50 decals. Think its safe to put multiple small run jobs on a printer so you can then cut the different jobs all at once? Trying to cut down on processes and how long it takes to print something (and labour).
 
J

JdaddioN

New Member
I have the Edge II. I didn't much know about any protective foils when I first started printing with it when it came out. Probaly becase I was sold on the fact that nothing else was needed to protect images. Now looking back at past signs that were foil printed, if they are north facing have faded. The Black foils seem to be okay but the Red foils especially seem to want to fade the fastest. Now every time a print goes through the Edge it gets a Clear UV Guard overprint or ZeroNine Frogskin overprint. No charge to the customer as reputation costs more then their decals fading and never coming back.
 
Fred Weiss

Fred Weiss

Merchant Member
JdaddioN said:
I have the Edge II. I didn't much know about any protective foils when I first started printing with it when it came out. Probaly becase I was sold on the fact that nothing else was needed to protect images. Now looking back at past signs that were foil printed, if they are north facing have faded. The Black foils seem to be okay but the Red foils especially seem to want to fade the fastest. Now every time a print goes through the Edge it gets a Clear UV Guard overprint or ZeroNine Frogskin overprint. No charge to the customer as reputation costs more then their decals fading and never coming back.
Click to expand...

Interesting difference between Colorado and Florida. Here in Florida we're particularly concerned with southern and western exposures due to sun fade. I wholeheartedly agree on not asking the client when UV Guard is indicated.
 
Fred Weiss

Fred Weiss

Merchant Member
WestcoastSigns said:
I guess one of my fears is not lining up the registration on the cutter correctly and destroying what I just printed. The Summa seems more idiot proof if you know what I mean.

Fred - good point about the ink and labour costs. One using more labour while the other uses more ink.

Some small runs I'll be doing will be VERY small at 50 decals. Think its safe to put multiple small run jobs on a printer so you can then cut the different jobs all at once? Trying to cut down on processes and how long it takes to print something (and labour).
Click to expand...

Lining up is pretty simple considering that you use tractor feed instead of friction feed. The bomb sight works very well if you keep you eye an inch above the cup instead of in contact with it. The worst problem with the bomb sight is dropping it on a concrete floor or sneaky dogs looking for a toy to chew.

My preference is to print each run on it's own which you'll find for other reasons will save you problems with both material consumption and registration. I printed 200 feet of 2 colors on clear labels yesterday. 600 of them, 3 up and about 11" wide. My choice was to run them is 40 short runs of 3 x 5 (about 5' wide total). I ended up with zero waste, near perfect registration, and, because my plotter is inline with the output side of the Edge, I was able to cut while I printed.

Six hours later, and with $1,700 profit over material cost, the job was done and my 11 year old Edge once again earned its keep.
 
Fred Weiss

Fred Weiss

Merchant Member
JdaddioN said:
You're correct Fred, I didn't type what I meant...South facing...
Click to expand...

guido.gif
You do that too? :Cool 2:
 
W

WestcoastSigns

New Member
The Gerber has a well developed aftermarket offering an overwhelmingly greater choice of materials at much better prices.
Click to expand...

Fred, does this hold true if its the Gerber Edge FX. I notice another post that I think you say the FX is harder to get anything other than their own brand of materials. I would like to get a second hand Edge but being a newbie, I feel I need the support of a warranty and training that I can get with new equipment.
 
Fred Weiss

Fred Weiss

Merchant Member
WestcoastSigns said:
Fred, does this hold true if its the Gerber Edge FX. I notice another post that I think you say the FX is harder to get anything other than their own brand of materials. I would like to get a second hand Edge but being a newbie, I feel I need the support of a warranty and training that I can get with new equipment.
Click to expand...

I think there is some aftermarket ... Advantage Sign Supply, for example, has refills for special FX compatible cartridges ($59 each) under their Apex brand name. Apex is rebranded Duracoat foil and they sell for about half the price of Gerber foils per running foot. My own experience with Duracoat/Apex foils has been very good.

The FX like it's predecessors will print on practically any film available in a 15" width with tractor feed holes, so using anyone's films is not an issue.

In your case, I cannot criticize the seeking out of training, support and a relationship with a competent reseller by choosing to go with an FX.
 
p3

p3

New Member
I've worked with a summa DC4 and i didn't like it at all. Without lamination, the prints really held up just as good as my Mutoh printer. Still needed actual laminate. The laminate(scotch guard) was no added protection really. The prints, are super hard to get to come out right, everything looks grainy and faded if you are using CMYK and not making it all from scratch and vectored. Gradients are really hard to achieve as well. As far as the printing and cutting, the problem with the summa was that not all material cut right. It would build up static electricity from feeding through the machine and somehow mess up the cuts. This happened more on their "high performance" vinyl. We had a tech come out a couple times and try and help us and spent a lot of time on the phone. I thought the machine was waaaay to tempermental for what it really was....
 
D

dclet

New Member
The prints, are super hard to get to come out right, everything looks grainy and faded if you are using CMYK and not making it all from scratch and vectored. Gradients are really hard to achieve as well.
Click to expand...

user error. period.

It would build up static electricity from feeding through the machine and somehow mess up the cuts.
Click to expand...

wha?

~ as with any printer on the market, you need to invest time...on what your needs are precisely. If you do not know what your needs are... I would suggest you out-source....it's too easy to buy a machine, rant on your own frustration, throw out complete misinformation that no one benefits from....

From personal experience - I could easily run my whole business on my summa dc3 if I wanted.

I can not say the same about my Mutoh.
 
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