Printing media 101

[CentralSigns]

Ya know for the same reasons we chose to purchase a 30 in machine. I've had to send out one banner and one print job to a 54 in machine, in the last 6 months. So it's rare to get a larger job for us. The bigger machine had a bigger price, more in maintenance costs and then stocking of material. If you use mainly 30 in then you gotta stock both 30 in and 54 in materials. We decided that the smaller machine would be paid for sooner and then we would explore a wider one at that time. I have no regrets, it is servicing our small business well. It is certainly a cheaper exploration into the world of digital printing.

 

[Colin]

I can see where you're coming from Colin but I also see Gino's experience coming through in his posts.

The scenario he described is exactly the way it happens in this shop as well.

There is nothing more frustrating than not having the correct material (and plenty of it) on hand.

Thanks for the reply and point of view. I think that what Gino is completely missing is that my business is likely not at all like his, and he seems to be insisting that all other buyers of printers ought to do things his way, or no way. I am not a store-front business (commercial space), I have a home-based business with 700 sq ft. detached shop in a somewhat rural area. I don't get tons of work like a commercial shop might, so to apply the same approach to material purchasing as a commercial shop would be flat-out foolish. This rigidity in thinking has resulted in this negative digression on this thread, and I find that very upsetting, because all I'm doing is asking a valid question about what print vinyl, laminate etc might cover the broadest number of applications/uses to get started with. Why Gino cannot simply answer with something like: "We've found that brand XYZ works well for many applications, but it's not recommended for such & such".......I do not know.

This is my suggestion...

Buy a 54" printer, after a couple months the 30" will be frustrating for all manner of reasons...*size*, material availability, pricing on material, nesting, speed etc, etc.

Thanks, but again, I've researched and thought about that ad nausium, and for a variety of reasons, I feel that the 30" is the best choice for my particular business. Do you work alone as I do? How would you handle those large prints all by yourself? How much does a 54" log weigh? And my space is limited. Again, if I was a commercial shop with loads of work, you would be absolutely correct in your advice for the 54" - without question - but for me, the 30" will work handsomely.

Stock a cheap gloss vinyl, an intermediate gloss vinyl and a some good cast for any vehicle stuff...( maybe half rolls if you can order it that way over there) You can always laminate in a matte or a gloss to acheive the desired result.

I spoke with one supplier and it is full rolls only, but there are others that I should check with. Thanks.

You need a banner as well. Poster paper, perf etc...you can order as need arises but let's hope that's not long off.

Yup! I asked about what banner material would be the best choice in the O/P, but haven't heard any recommendations. (until Malkin's post above).

You'll be printing far more than you realise once you get up to speed and start replacing cut vinyl with printed jobs. You'll see & seize a lot more opportunities with the printer than you can foresee at this moment.

Yes, this is what I anticipate to some degree, and I will promote it more, but the economy is just limping along, and as in most places, the sign business here is very competitive.

 

[Colin]

Thanks Malkin and CentralSigns for the helpful comments.

 

[chopper]

I will take a stab at this....
I am also a one man shop,
I have a sp300v roland printer,
I use primarily one brand of media,
sound ok so far?
I use to have oracal 3651, in stock and the 3951, in stock, one for the low end and one for the high end, over a period of time I found that it wasn't worth stocking two different type of media, I had some trouble with the oracal 3951,
and I stopped using it, then I switched to arlon
I use the dpf6000xrp with the matching lam, and this is all I use, it is cheaper than the oracal, and performs better, (this is my opinion) if I need to do a low end print I will print on 651 vinyl, or maybe 751, depending on what I need to do, or the particular job, I have found it way more cost effective to use one material than to stock many types,(the difference in cost between the materials per sqft is so minimal that it does not pay to stock so many types of material unless you are doing a high volume of cheap signs then it might pay off to have the cheaper material on hand which I can have in a few hours from my supplier) of coarse I have window pref on hand also..but you get the idea, after you get the printer and get familiar with it, all this will work it self out, but I mainly do trucks and vehicle stuff, along with higher quality signs, so the media I have chosen fits the realm, of most of my jobs,
I also believe that Geno is right, with what He is saying but he is running on a larger scale than I am or I intend on doing, and I think that is where the differences comes in, so it will depend on what you want or need to do,...
also don't forget that you will need a laminator to go with that printer...and don't cheap out on the laminator, if you do you will loose more money redoing prints .....now for the disclaimer this is my opinion which does not reflect signs 101's policies and or decisions...what the heck do I know I am just a sign painter,,,
//chopper

 

[Colin]

Thanks chopper.

One thing I wonder about, and anyone feel free to comment on this.......given that we're printing ink on vinyl, which inherently has a limited life span - even with a laminate - why would one use expensive, long-lasting cast vinyl for prints (except for maybe a boat lettering job)?

 

[Gino]

I had a different response for you Colin, but I will say this now.... there is no difference between my shop, Colin's or a biggie like Merritt’s..... we all have the same everything. The only difference is where the commas fall. In saying that, if one is satisfied and content where they are and have no ambition or thoughts about growing or downsizing, the rest of the plans are the same.

Take it or leave it… the fact remains, there won’t be a happy little area that will let you only stock a few items regardless of the size of your shop, home-based situation or production facility. You need to meet the demands of your customers and getting this machine, Colin, whether you like it or not…. you’re either gonna grow or die trying. Getting the printer is expanding your business and your business plan. Have you really figured that into your grand scheme of things ?? Why not at listen and cogitate over some of the facts instead of dismissing them instantly because you have some other instincts that you haven’t mentioned.

I’m sorry if I’m pissing you off Colin, but hopefully others will see some light here on how to grow…. even if you want to stay right where you’re at and not think outside of your box.

 

[chopper]

Thanks chopper.

One thing I wonder about, and anyone feel free to comment on this.......given that we're printing ink on vinyl, which inherently has a limited life span - even with a laminate - why would one use expensive, long-lasting cast vinyl for prints (except for maybe a boat lettering job)?

your welcome....
you could be correct that the vinyl will out last the print, but it is not all about how long it will last even though that is important, the cast material will conform to the surfaces that it is applied to with no or minimal shrinking, over rivets, ribs, corners, etc..where the calendered material will not, the xrp that I use is also air release material which is really nice for applying, and the cast material removal is way better also, so if you don't want to be redoing a job in 6 months that should last for years, you need to use the good stuff... there were a few posts recently where some one used the calendered print media and it was falling off,
//chopper

 

[sardocs]

I bought a sp300 when they first came out. I think it's been almost 10 years ago now. I'm a signpainter turned vinyl signmaker. I haven't needed a bigger printer at all. The 300 is a perfect machine for my shop. When I need a bigger banner than i can print, I usually can do it in cut vinyl or the ol'fashioned way. What brands of films do the supplier you are getting your machine from stock. I use roland films mostly. I like the matte stuff called MCVP, for coro signs, mdo, etc. On vehicles I use PCVP. The matte finish seems to print nicer. I predict you will be happy with the 30" machine. I'm real lazy when it comes to maintenance, and the sp300 seems to put up with my neglective attitude.

 

[Colin]

Hi sardocs. Thanks. PM sent.

 

[sardocs]

I know you will love the printer, but you're gonna miss your boat...

 

[Colin]

I know you will love the printer, but you're gonna miss your boat...

Yes, especially when summer rolls around. There'll be no more of these (although I have lots of friends with boats that I could go fishing with):

 

[GAC05]

Colin your best bet is to find all of the suppliers in your area and get an idea of what they have on hand on any given day.
Then order on demand as you need it.

Not much sense in laminating the low cost material for the temp jobs.
I would keep some cast vinyl and matching gloss lam for the long term (vehicle) stuff.
A roll or 2 of 13oz gloss banner material should be good for starters.
Don't go by price on the banner material - get a brand that is recommended off this list.
Cheap banner can screw up so many things and looks like crap when printed.

Good luck with this new venture.

wayne k
guam usa

 

[Colin]

Thanks Wayne!

 

[Sign Works]

Another one man shop here with a 30" Roland SP-300V
I'm very happy using Oracal media & lam films. (you will need a laminator)
Primarily use 3640, 3651 & 3951 but also stock 3551, 3551RA & 3951RA.
For Banner material I use Ultraflex JetFlex, have tried VYJET which also works well just costs more.


BTW ... Oracal's Quick Reference Guides provide helpful specs.
http://www.oracal.com/knowledge/quick-reference-guides.asp

 

[gabagoo]

Some very good posts already. I think you'll find that you'll end up being somewhere in between what you think you need now (little) and what Gino is referring to (everything).

When we got our XC-540 last June... our supplier included a 10 yd. roll of just about every Oracal material they stock. This gave us a chance to see what we liked and what was not necessary. At first we primarily used 3651 + 210Gloss, but quickly accumulated inventory. We now have just about every kind of vinyl in stock (perf, reflective, cast wrapping film, calendered, removable, high tack, clear, cling etc etc)
Like all the examples already given, one day you'll need this, next day you'll need that...etc. The key is doing your research and building a relationship with your suppliers so you are aware of availability and square foot pricing.

I'm not sure where you are...(although I assume BC after that pic of that beauty!) but you might want to check out TCT Graphic Products out of Toronto. Tristan was great to deal with and sent me some samples and price lists a while back. They sell General Formulations, which I've only tried the high tack vinyl so far but it was a great product.

As for any of the other materials, if you ever need some samples to try out I have lots of end rolls lying around, or if you need anything bigger than 30" printed I would be happy to help.

Good luck with your research!

Pat

I would like to add that TCT ( for us Canucks) also will sell partial rolls and will slit to any size you want.
For me I stock 54" matte / gloss in full rolls but I also get 54" and 60" rolls cut down to 24", 30 and 36" sizes so that I can avoid the waste issue.

General Formulations for whatever reason seems to keep a low profile but I have tried them all and I find that the Premium calendered they sell in gloss is very similar in look and print to Oracal, and cheaper!!!!
The matte vinyl is absolutley wonderful to print on and when applying with the BS rolls off that thick juicy backing paper marvelously.

General Formulations also makes a high end calendered that has air egress properties and can be used for wraps. It is less costly than a 2ml product naturally and I have seen demos of it being used on rivets and it does not act like any calendered I have seen before. I think it is called Automark.

Over time you will naturally stock more and more different types of vinyls and laminates as you see fit for your clientele. I know for me being in a large city that I can order at 9 or 10 am and have delivery by 3 or 4 the same day or at worse case scenario , next day by 11 or 12.

 

[k.a.s.]

Colin, congrats on the printer, no matter what anyone tells you it IS worth it. I'd say I'm about the same size place as you, my shop is basicly me and my parents. I know there are good wholesale printers but about 3 years ago I bought a Mumaki JV-33 and have not regreted it a single day. There are days it does not print at all, but if I want to print at 1:00 am I can.

Now I also am happy I bought a 54" rather than a 30" but the smaller may work for you. As far as vinyl, I do 90% of my work with one of 3 things...

-One roll of calendered Vinyl (and matching Lam), I usally use Grimco's briteline or Trim USA's LG vinyl. I use this for all short-term stuff, and things with a flat surface.

-One roll of a good cast vinyl, I use 3M IJ-180c. This is what I put on vehicles and long term signs.

-One roll of 13 oz banner material, I dont even talk to a customer about the weight of it unless they ask. All my banners are just 13 oz end of story.

Now since I have had the printer for three years I do get call and have smaller rolls here of window perf, reflective, translucent, printable canvas, and heat press material. But you wouldnt have to, you could order these prints or simply pass on the job.

Lots of good advice here, I have learned one thing since gettign into printing, A lot of people make a bigger deal out of it than it is. In reading things before I got it I expected it to be much harder and have a much bigger learning curve than it actully does. Frankly its fairly easy, and you will do fine.

Kevin

 

[gabagoo]

The only problem I see with a 30" printer is that it will take you out of the retractable banner market as most start I believe at about 31" wide, but i guess you can still farm that work out if need be.

Over time you will use the printer more and more as you decide...hmmmm do i want to cut weed mask and lay down all that or simply print and apply. There are pros and cons to both.

 

[MikePro]

i think that's your best bet... find out what your local supplier has. (Especially in 3M or Oracal/Orajet/Oraguard form). Never hurts to ask them what their most popular economy and high performance materials are, since chances are best that they'll always have them in stock.

you'll eventually run into a situation where you're out of material and a hot project needs to go out asap... I've got 3 suppliers in my area that deliver same-day if I order before 9am and luckily they all carry Oracal/3M products.

 

[Colin]

Thanks again for the last few comments. One thing that has been mentioned a few times is how the matte vinyl results in a better print than gloss. I find this counterintuitive as we all know the dramatically better prints one gets out of their desktop printer when using a glossy photo paper rather than regular paper. I know the analogy is flawed because the regular paper actually soaks in the ink, and vinyl doesn't, but why does matte offer a better result?


30" vs 54" Printer:

I was noodling with my floor plan on the computer last night, and it is possible that I could fit in a 54" printer, but it would be tight. Anyways, I'm wondering if there's anybody out there who uses a 54" printer all by themselves (with 54" rolls). Is it no issue at all, or would it be difficult and frustrating as I visualize it might be?

 

[sardocs]

If there is a down-side to owning a printer, it's gotta be the amount of nephew-art you are going to have to print. You know the two sign designs you have on your web site showing the value of good design over poor layout? Get ready to have every wannabe designer in your area sending you "camera ready" files.

 

[Colin]

If there is a down-side to owning a printer, it's gotta be the amount of nephew-art you are going to have to print. You know the two sign designs you have on your web site showing the value of good design over poor layout? Get ready to have every wannabe designer in your area sending you "camera ready" files.

Ya, I figure I'll just handle that in the same way I do with other non-printing methods. Try and get 'em to be open to design alterations.