printing onto aluminum - whats your machine?

[PB33064]

Hello Signs101,
I came here hoping to get some insights on flatbed printing direct to aluminum.
What machine do you have and what is the outdoor lifespan?

I read a few threads, and afterwards I had more concerns than before.
A couple threads left me with the impression, it wasn't for the long term outdoor use?
Is this correct?

Any help would be appreciated.

 

[BigfishDM]

If you want to make it a long term deal, don't print onto it, print onto cast vinyl. How long outdoors are you looking to get?

 

[PB33064]

Absolutely no less than 4 years. 7 years would be the ideal

What flatbed printers do you have experience with Mr. bigFish? What is the outdoor lifespan?

 

[SignMeUpGraphics]

Océ Arizona UV inks are rated for 2 years unlaminated, 4 years laminated outdoors.
You'll get more than that out of solvent/latex on cast though.

 

[2B]

more information on how / what you are using the end products will help

If you are going full color, then printed vinyl with lam will last longer than a flatbed with lam

HOWEVER, there is also the process of screen printing and this will last longer than printed and you don't need lam

 

[PB33064]

2B the material we typically use is .080 aluminum or occasionally ACM.
One project we have now (and this is typical of our workload) is a 4 color on white - Red, black, yellow and blue Hazcomm symbols. The quantity is 165 identical signs, and the size is 30" x 30". They will be mounted to fences, buildings, posts and also to the back of tanker trucks.

My first thought was to investigate a screen print. Let me say, we don't do screen print and I know nothing about the process. With that said, I did contact a company that does this type of work.The gentleman I spoke with would only guesstimate a 2 year before fading started to occur if we used a factory painted white aluminum blank. He went on to say, a longer lifespan is possible on a traffic grade reflective material as the inks are different and last much longer, and have a better bite. I don't know how true that is.
Any feedback on this?

We have always printed on vinyl and apply to the aluminum. I'm looking for a more cost effective way to produce.

 

[skyhigh]

Screen print on HIP reflective will last longer than the a screen print on the painted alum. That much is true.
The HIP is going to add to your cost too.

Did you get any cost comparisons?

Print to vinyl and apply vs screen to HIP would be the 2 ways I would be comparing.

 

[ikarasu]

You'll likely get longer printing on the cheapest vinyl and screen printing then you would printing direct to aluminum.

You could use a cheap material like 3m ij-35, and print to it - you'll typically get 5-7 years out of it screen printing.

We print directly to Avery and 3m sign vinyl.

30" rolls, you'd need about 3 rolls... That's add $3-500 depending on the vinyl you use. But then they would last typically 7-10+ years if screen printed.

The only direct to substrate we do, is stuff that we know is temporary. The ink doesn't soak into materials like aluminum, which is why they tend not to last as long. If you want 5-10 years, you may be stuck with using vinyl on-top.

If the signs are 2-3 color, and all the same design, we would sheet it with Avery vinyl, then screen print it and be done with it. If it has gradients on it, we would print it, laminate it and apply it. Screen print is way cheaper, and less labour intensive for that quantity though.

 

[PB33064]

Let me see if I have this correct. For longevity outdoors, the worst to best would be

WORST
- UV to painted aluminum sheet
- Screen to painted aluminum sheet
- Digital print to vinyl and apply to aluminum
- Screen to aluminum with vinyl application
- Screen to aluminum with traffic reflective vinyl application
BEST

Would this list be correct? And 2 final questions would be, does the screen inks work better with regular vinyl or the reflective vinyl? And is laminating a screen print a typical thing, or don't you laminate this process?

 

[d fleming]

Proper screen print inks with adhesion promoter should be a good long term solution. Reds and yellows will fade first.

 

[PB33064]

Proper screen print inks with adhesion promoter should be a good long term solution. Reds and yellows will fade first.

Would you do a vinyl on the aluminum before screen printing? If so, would you use regular vinyl or the reflective?

 

[Gino]

Your customer will tell you if it needs to be reflective or not. Most likely, it will be, though.

We've been printing to baked on enamel coated aluminum for years and other than red, the ink will last at least 10 years. Reds will fade a little sooner. The trick is, not to use multi-purpose inks like the 9700 series. I believe it's the 59000 series which will be your inbk for this project.

See, years ago, when screening, you hadda have several series of blacks, reds, blues and so on.... according to what you were printing on. They came out with this multi purpose ink which will work across the board, except for textiles, but you gave up longevity for less stock on hand.

It's different today with all the methods of producing these things, but if you get the correct ink for the correct substrate, you'll be fine.

 

[ikarasu]

Would you do a vinyl on the aluminum before screen printing? If so, would you use regular vinyl or the reflective?

I dont think reflective vinyl lasts longer than regular. If you're using a cast vinyl, it should last the same. It also adds quite a bit to your price.

And no, you don't need to laminate it.

 

[BigfishDM]

Absolutely no less than 4 years. 7 years would be the ideal

What flatbed printers do you have experience with Mr. bigFish? What is the outdoor lifespan?

Oce, Mimaki, HP, Jetrix, Swiss Q, and EFI are the ones I have the most experience with. None of them will get you that outdoor durability though.

 

[PB33064]

We've been printing to baked on enamel coated aluminum for years and other than red, the ink will last at least 10 years. Reds will fade a little sooner. The trick is, not to use multi-purpose inks like the 9700 series. I believe it's the 59000 series which will be your inbk for this project.

Thank you. I will check to see what inks the printer would be using.
I see you do UV flatbed too? What are you seeing for longevity on direct to painted aluminum?

 

[PB33064]

Thank you all for the information. Great help!!!!!

 

[ikarasu]

We do direct print with UV - Never tried on painted aluminum... Mostly we do it on ACM, Coro, Occasionally wood, and plastics. We printed a little punisher Dibond skull to test a print and cut when we first got our cutter - We used a bonding agent and everything, It was mounted indoors... and it started to peel after 3 years. No exposure to sunlight... It could be because it was placed on a Cutter and constantly moving / vibrating, but 3 years with no sunlight exposure kind of annoyed us.

Materials like ACM / Metal don't bond too good. It's a solid, so the ink doesn't seep into the material like a solvent printer on vinyl will... I don't think you'll ever get even near the amount of time you'd like with UV. It's a good technology and it comes in handy, but for the length of time you want it to last... I think your only option is Screen print, or using a high quality cast material with laminating.

Come to think of it... We just did a huge job for the local port/ferrys, We screen printed directly to powder coated aluminum. With a 7-10 year guarantee - It's a repeat job that we've done for years and years. That was mostly white ink on a blue powder coat though.

I don't know enough about screen printing to comment on what you need to do for direct to aluminum though. I work in the digital department, never actually done any screen printing myself, it's always a co-worker. Gino's been in the game for many years, and he knows what he's talking about - I'd suggest following his advice if you want to do a direct print. I think with the right ink, you may be fine.

Do you do your own screen printing, or plan on picking up a system to do this yourself? Or are you looking for a supplier? If you're going to outsource... I'd contact suppliers through the merchant program on here... Ask them what materials/inks they use, how long it lasts, etc.

 

[spectrum maine]

how about direct printing on aluminum then a matthews clearcoat? anyone done that?

 

[Grizzly]

We have been direct printing to ACM for 12 years so we have actually been able to see the longevity of many different ways. Which ACM can make a difference too. I didn't read anyone mention sign direction and sometimes it's not always possible to know but I ask whether or not the sign is south/west or north/east facing. That can make a huge difference in longevity. With our our first printer, the Gandiinnovations Jeti 3150, anywhere from 4-6 years was average lifespan before it started looking worn out. That being said, if it's under some sort of awning or north/east facing, 2-3 years longer. We then moved to an AGFA Jeti 1224 HDC, and it seems about the same longevity if not slightly less long term durability. My personal opinion was the change from a 50 picoliter dot to a 7 picoliter dot. Much thinner ink usage so not as durable. We've only hard our Titan HS for about 2 years so I'm not sure on real life longevity yet. I do know have a west facing sign, printed on 10mil coro with primer that still looks perfect after 2 years so I'm hopeful that ink will last well on ACM. We UV liquid coat all of our outdoor prints so that helps add 1-2 years on top of the manufacturer estimated outdoor usage. Now we just feel out our customer. If its a permanent sign on a building, we print direct and overlam with either 3m 8508 or 8518, depending on which way the sign will be facing. Especially larger signs, we tend to error on the side of overlam since I don't want a customer paying for a sign and having it fail, and 1 either feeling like i should replace it at my cost or 2 make them pay for it. I haven't had a large overlammed sign come back yet within that "it should have lasted longer than that feeling." I have seen a few at the 9-10 year mark that do look a little worn out but at that point, they need a new one.
So we print direct and liquid laminate for most of our signs. Signs we feel need the extra long term durability, we overlam. We don't print with solvent unless it needs to be reflective.

 

[d fleming]

Would you do a vinyl on the aluminum before screen printing? If so, would you use regular vinyl or the reflective?

No vinyl. Straight to substrate. And what Gino said about 5900 series inks is correct. I keep adhesion promoter around for those moments when I don't want to drop a pile of coin on a small print run and have ink leftover forever. Not everything needs to last 10 years.