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Problem with matching swatches

I am trying to print a sign with a background color that is a ROLAND Swatch for the xc540 . swatch BK-11
No matter what I do the printer will not print the color properly..
I know this has something to do with the drop shadows i have on the text..
I printed a swatch of BK 11 by itself and it was perfectly fine...
Now when i used it as a background color on my sign it was totally off..
Ive tried everything.. Ive flattened it.. ive tried rasterizing.. Ive also re designed it in photoshop and saved as a Tiff and it still wont print the proper color!!! Ive been messing with it all day and even one of our techs had no clue as to why the color wont come out right.. I mean what else is there that i can do?
Also my "convert to spot color" tab is checked on versaworks.
 

signage

New Member
I continue to be amazed at how antiquated ideas continue to get in the way of getting good output.

The overall concepts are extremely simple. All digital color, especially large format, is about managing a conversion from what the color is in the file to accurate output on your specific print system. To do this at a reasonably good level, you simply connect the color space of the file with the output profile that matches your output in your RIP's color management settings. Done.

If your file is RGB, CMYK, Pantone, or a mix of these, it should not matter. If your system is setup correctly, and you have a good output profile, life should be pretty good. The details of this can get a bit complicated, but if you have the proper goal in mind, it can guide you when you are confronted with choices.

I'm going to generalize here, so try not to pick apart exceptions.....
For most folks, your design applications should be setup to recognize and create files in these color spaces....
RGB = sRGB
CMYK = US Web Coated SWOP (in the US)

If all your design apps Working Spaces and your RIP's input profiles are setup to agree to these settings, you've got your input side pretty much sorted out for 99% of files. Now you'll be able to handle all of these file types with equal ease and success.

The output side is generally the hardest part to do well because many "canned" profiles are of average performance. Only you can define if they are good enough for your needs or not. But most people have no idea how to evaluate and test the output profile objectively.

Sending perfect grays though the print system as even numbers of RGB or as CMYK numbers of K only or all CMY and K mixed, but mixed as a properly balanced grey, will be a very demanding test of an output profile. If the resulting print does not come out grey, that's a clue the output profile is inaccurate for your system. Another valid test is to send Pantone colors though with the RIP's ability to recognize them correctly turned ON. Then check for accuracy. If the Pantone is defined as a standardly named Pantone color, and your RIP "sees" it correctly, this is also a valid test.

If you need better results than your valid tests give you, expect to get into making your own profiles. Then your color performance is only limited by the equipment, materials, and your expertise at getting the most out of them. For some shops, this is a monumental change of the better. For some, the advantage is not worth the expense and frustration. Usually the differences are purely economical and obvious.

Of course there is the issue of out of gamut colors. Having a Pantone Bridge book is an excellent tool to help visually explain to print buyers why they can not get Reflex Blue or Orange 021 C on a print system using the CMYK that is defined in the Pantone book. But a properly profiled print system that uses the typical OEM inks can hit 80-90% of the Pantone book with little effort or editing on a decent material. Your level of success with Pantone most often has to do with the accuracy of the output profile, not gamut limitations.

Some common exceptions to these very simple guidelines are if you create the large majority of what you print. If so, going with Adobe RGB as a day to day working space is a good choice. The RIP obviously needs to be setup to agree with this choice. You also have to be aware that almost 100% of RGB files you get from outside sources are going to be sRGB. This creates an opportunity for your RIP to think the incoming file is Adobe RGB instead of correctly agreeing with the incoming sRGB.

Sometimes it is helpful to turn proper color management OFF in the RIP to run CMYK files with the printers maximum gamut instead of striving for color accuracy. This has its place, but will cause more grief if all your CMYK files are run this way. To do this workflow well, your RIP's linearization (calibration, not icc profile) has to really ROCK! Generally, stick to converting all incoming files (assuming your output profile does at least an average job of converting them).

I don't intend to fan any fames here as so often happens with color discussions on this board. I hope to illustrate that a properly setup print system is not hard to achieve. If you want to get the last 10-15% of performance out of your prints, expect it to get more complicated (and expensive).
:goodpost:
This is from a post by BigHouse!
 
..

Both adobe illustrator , photoshop and my Versaworks are all set to output CMYK. Illustrator defaults to CMYK

Now when i try to print this grey swatch by itself its perfectly fine. We have a color chart to match the roland xc540 swatches to..

When I try to print it with my drop shadows over the grey background thats when there is an issue.. no matter what i did: flattening, rasterizing etc
the color wont come out right. I doubt the printer is off as I have no problems matching swatches on our roland..
 
hmm

Well I tried printing the same drop shadowed lettering on a red background which is also a roland swatch.. I rasterized it and it came out perfect...
Now i know for sure it is something with the grey swatches on the roland XC 540.. all other swatches will print just fine..
I still have no clue as to why it wont print the grey swatches properly!!!
Any other suggestions?
 
..

Ive had no issues with rasterizing changing colors before.. Roland definately picks up the swatch color when I send it to versaworks.. i even asked a tech. support we use and he didnt even know whats wrong..

Its just so weird that the red swatch printed just fine!!! but not the grey
 

Bigdawg

Just Me
baloney... unless you are saving with a spot color channel there is no named color for Roland to pick up in a tif. Impossible. Can't happen. Against the laws of physics...etc.
 
no..

I meant that when i tried printing it as an EPS it picks up roland swatches..

Versaworks does Not read roland swatches when i export as Tiff from photoshop. Yet the output when printed from a photoshop tiff usually matches whatever color swatch im trying to match..

Ive tried everything.. rasterizing, flattening. Printing as a tiff, eps, pdf, jpeg.. etc.. Im totally stuck on this one.

The weirdest thing is that printing a drop shadow with any other swatch color for the background works just fine.. any color but roland greys.. its adding a red tint to all the prints when im using just a 50% grey.
 

Bigdawg

Just Me
Grays are always a challenge... I have a thread started somewhere dedicated to that...

You are not understanding. Once rasterized... your roland swatch is no longer a swatch. It is a CMYK or RGB version that will print subject to the profile you are using.

This is not a swatch problem. This is a profile problem.
 
...

Yes i understand that it is not a roland swatch once its rasterized... Im just saying that the colors that are printed appear the same as what ever swatches ive used in my files even though it has been rasterized, Im fully aware that it is no longer a roland swatch and they are converted to CMYK when ripped.. What would be the problem with the profile then? Its all in CMYK , output to printer is CMYK in versaworks also..

I dont see how it could be a profile problem.. when it only does this on grey swatches and everything else is fine..
why does it only happen with grey and not any other color...
I printed red the same way ive been doing this grey swatch and the red came out fine..
 

Bigdawg

Just Me
because essentially gray is an even build of CMYK (say 20/20/20/20). Profiles compensate for media hues and printing conditions. So your 20/20/20/20 might actually print 20/40/10/5 after being ripped with your profile.

Now take that gray outdoors and look at it in the sunlight... betchya it looks different than it did in the shop...
 
..

the grey im using is roland BK-11 . the CMYK value on it is just 50% black and no other colors...
are you saying i have to change the media profiles in versaworks? Or the rgb or cmyk profiles that are assigned the the adobe programs im using?
Thanks for the feedback.

It also seems hard to find more info about printing to the roland as far as transparency , colors, profiles ,etc.. anybody know any good information sites for that type of stuff?
 

eye4clr

New Member
I dont see how it could be a profile problem.. when it only does this on grey swatches and everything else is fine..
why does it only happen with grey and not any other color...
I printed red the same way ive been doing this grey swatch and the red came out fine..

We pretty much suck at seeing degrees of difference in rich, saturated, and dark colors. We are extremely good at seeing tiny differences in greys and lighter colors.

It could be that you have a pretty even degree of color error across the board but only really notice in the grey.

My wild ass guess is that if you get grey to come out well in most cases and it is just failing with your drop shadow, then it is likely how that drop shadow is getting generated that is the problem.

Can you eyedropper the drop shadow to see if it is in fact neutral in the file? If it is, then it is an output profile problem. If it is not, then voila you've found your problem.
 

Bigdawg

Just Me
the grey im using is roland BK-11 . the CMYK value on it is just 50% black and no other colors...
are you saying i have to change the media profiles in versaworks? Or the rgb or cmyk profiles that are assigned the the adobe programs im using?
Thanks for the feedback.

It also seems hard to find more info about printing to the roland as far as transparency , colors, profiles ,etc.. anybody know any good information sites for that type of stuff?

Versaworks uses it's profile information to adjust the color assigned from Adobe... so just saying "50% black" for gray in Adobe means that Versaworks will build it's own CMYK value that (according to the profile) will replicate the black only you've indicated.

eye5clr has it right... try printing a 50% black WITHOUT using the swatch as a spot color swap-out. Does it have the same type of hue that your drop shadow does?
 
Yes i eyedroppered the drop shadow and it just comes up with no fill, no stroke. Im gona do a test print of 50% black..

I know for sure the drop shadow is the issue as the swatch by itself is fine and so are all other swatches. They match our color chart very closely
 
,,

So i know for sure that it is an output problem with the profiles now. What can i do to change it? should i find my own cmyk values that match the swatch color without using pure K values of 50%?
 

Bigdawg

Just Me
I am trying so hard to help you. Please listen.

Your swatches do not mean diddly on your rasterized drop shadow. Period. Quit printing swatches and try printing CMYK equivalent process colors to the swatch.

Roland will ALWAYS swap out it's swatch unless you tell it not to... so of course your swatch is fine. Just draw a box... assign it a color of 50% black (without a swatch) and print.

Edited to add...we cross posted - sorry!
 
..

No i have not made any profiles and dont think we have software to do so. THanks for the help I do understand what you are saying its just a bit hard communicating over the net vs. in person..
 
Roland Color System bypasses the ICC profile, and outputs the color directly into the CMYK values assigned by the Roland Color swatch. It does not convert the color through LAB color space as it would using ICC-based standards. This is why you need to print out the swatch chart onto each media in order to know what the result will be on that media product.
 
yea

I printed the sign without the drop shadows on my text.. the color is fine without the drop shadows. the drop shadow is what's creating the problem.. yet when i used a drop shadow with any other swatch as my background i had no issues at all... I give up on this nonsense. It is something with the output but why is it only doing it on the grey swatch?
My file is a grey roland swatch background with text that has a drop shadow..
 
Roland Color Libraries

I printed the sign without the drop shadows on my text.. the color is fine without the drop shadows. the drop shadow is what's creating the problem.. yet when i used a drop shadow with any other swatch as my background i had no issues at all... I give up on this nonsense. It is something with the output but why is it only doing it on the grey swatch?
My file is a grey roland swatch background with text that has a drop shadow..

Roland color libraries do a RIP swap for color based on a spot color assignment. When the object above have a drop shadow (I am assuming it is a Gaussian drop shadow) the roland color will have to resort to CMYK behind the clipping path for the effect - changing the swap assignment. I would guess you are seeing a box that makes the color wrong.

My solution is to convert the behind shape color to CMYK and avoid using the Roland system library when gradients and rasterized effects are used. If the color needs to match other colors - convert all colors so they match. Print test patches of CMYK swatches to find the best.

Greg
 

Ponto

New Member
Ahhh, the wacky world of color!... interesting choice of forums for your quandry-----were you able to get anywhere on the Signarama members forum?.... just wondering.......:rolleyes:

JP
 
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