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Question Product Waiver for Installation

Discussion in 'General Signmaking Topics' started by TXFB.INS, Apr 29, 2019.

  1. TXFB.INS

    TXFB.INS Very Active Member

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    Have a customer who is relocating, the "new" building has an existing Sign Pole.

    They are wanting to place a sign onto the existing pole.
    They also have heavy equipment (cranes) and will do their own installation

    We did not install the current pole and have no idea what the pole is from an engineering perspective.
    Is there an existing waiver or a waiver template that we can have signed stating all aspects related to installation and engineering stamp specs are NOT our responsibility.
     
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  2. JBurton

    JBurton Signtologist

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    I'd just add to my fine print, "warranty to include all material and workmanship, installation by others not warrantied" or something to that affect, plus initial spot right next to it. Otherwise I'd have an honest discussion with the customer about your concerns.
     
  3. equippaint

    equippaint Very Active Member

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    I've always been lazy in the legal department. If someone has more to lose then me, I usually don't worry about it. They tell me what they want, I do it and the rest is up to them. Honestly, if something happened and I was the plaintiffs lawyer, Id be all over your 1 off contract. To me that plainly says, you knew what they were doing and knew that it wasn't the best idea..... but did it anyways. If it was your standard practice, it would be different.
     
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  4. JBurton

    JBurton Signtologist

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    So you feel that adding such a statement would amount to liability?
     
  5. bannertime

    bannertime Very Active Member

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    No
    I think a better option would be signing off on something stating they still need to get a permit. The city will then ask them to provide the engineering requirements.
     
  6. GAC05

    GAC05 Major Contributor

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    Get one of those universal ones off the internet, this one seems to cover just about everything:

    Disclaimer
    Do not remove this disclaimer under penalty of law.
    For optimum performance and safety, please read these instructions carefully.

    Void where prohibited. No representation or warranty, express or implied, with respect to the completeness, accuracy, fitness for a particular purpose, or utility of these materials or any information or opinion contained herein. Actual mileage may vary. Prices slightly higher west of the Mississippi. All models over 18 years of age. No animals were harmed during the production of this product. Any resemblance to actual people, living or dead, or events, past, present or future, is purely coincidental. This product not to be construed as an endorsement of any product or company, nor as the adoption or promulgation of any guidelines, standards or recommendations. Some names have been changed to protect the innocent. This product is meant for educational purposes only. Some assembly required. Batteries not included. Package sold by weight, not volume. Contents may settle during shipment. No user-serviceable parts inside. Use only as directed.

    Do not eat. Not a toy.

    Postage will be paid by addressee. If condition persists, consult your physician. Subject to change without notice. Times approximate. One size fits all. Colors may, in time, fade. For office use only. Edited for television. List was current at time of printing. At participating locations only. Keep away from fire or flame. Avoid contact with skin. Sanitised for your protection. Employees and their families are not eligible. Beware of the dog. Limited time offer. No purchase necessary. Not recommended for children under 12. Prerecorded for this time zone. Some of the trademarks mentioned in this product appear for identification purposes only. Freshest if eaten before date on carton. Subject to change without notice. Please allow 4 to 6 weeks for delivery. Not responsible for direct, indirect, incidental or consequential damages resulting from any defect, error or failure to perform. Slippery when wet. Substantial penalty for early withdrawal. For recreational use only. No Canadian coins. List each check separately by bank number. This is not an offer to sell securities.

    Read at your own risk. Ask your doctor or pharmacist. Parental guidance advised. Always read the label. Do not use while operating a motor vehicle or heavy equipment. Do not stamp. Breaking seal constitutes acceptance of agreement. Contains non-milk fat. Date as postmark. Lost ticket pays maximum rate. Use only in well-ventilated area. Price does not include taxes. Not for resale. Hand wash only. Keep away from sunlight. For a limited time only. No preservatives or additives. Keep away from pets and small children. Safety goggles required during use. If rash, irritation, redness, or swelling develops, discontinue use. Do not fold, spindle or mutilate. Please remain seated until the web page has come to a complete stop. Refrigerate after opening. Flammable. Must be 18 years or older. Seat backs and tray tables must be in the upright position. Repeat as necessary. Do not look directly into light. Avoid extreme temperatures and store in a cool dry place. No salt, MSG, artificial colouring or flavoring added. Reproduction strictly prohibited. Pregnant women, the elderly, and children should avoid prolonged exposure to this product. If ingested, do not induce vomiting. May contain nuts. Objects in mirror may be closer than they appear. Do not use if safety seal is broken.

    Apply only to affected area. Do not use this product if you have high blood pressure, heart disease, diabetes, thyroid disease, asthma, glaucoma, or difficulty in urination. May be too intense for some viewers. In case of accidental ingestion, seek professional assistance or contact a poison control center immediately. Many suitcases look alike. Post office will not deliver without postage. Not the Beatles. Products are not authorized for use as critical components in life support devices or systems. Driver does not carry cash. Do not puncture or incinerate. Do not play your headset at high volume. Discontinue use of this product if any of the following occurs: itching, aching, vertigo, dizziness, ringing in your ears, vomiting, giddiness, aural or visual hallucinations, tingling in extremities, loss of balance or coordination, slurred speech, temporary blindness, drowsiness, insomnia, profuse sweating, shivering, or heart palpitations. Video+ and Video- are at ECL voltage levels, HSYNC and VSYNC are at TTL voltage levels. It is a violation of federal law to use this product in a manner inconsistent with its labeling. Intentional misuse by deliberately concentrating and inhaling the contents can be harmful or fatal. This product has been shown to cause cancer in laboratory rats. Do not use the AC adaptor provided with this player for other products.

    DO NOT DELETE THIS LINE -- make depend depends on it.

    Warranty does not cover normal wear and tear, misuse, accident, lightning, flood, hail storm, tornado, tsunami, volcanic eruption, avalanche, earthquake or tremor, hurricane, solar activity, meteorite strike, nearby supernova and other Acts of God, neglect, damage from improper or unauthorised use, incorrect line voltage, unauthorised use, unauthorised repair, improper installation, typographical errors, broken antenna or marred cabinet, missing or altered serial numbers, electromagnetic radiation from nuclear blasts, microwave ovens or mobile phones, sonic boom vibrations, ionising radiation, customer adjustments that are not covered in this list, and incidents owing to an airplane crash, ship sinking or taking on water, motor vehicle crashing, dropping the item, falling rocks, leaky roof, broken glass, disk failure, accidental file deletions, mud slides, forest fire, riots or other civil unrest, acts of terrorism or war, whether declared or not, explosive devices or projectiles (which can include, but may not be limited to, arrows, crossbow bolts, air gun pellets, bullets, shot, cannon balls, BBs, shrapnel, lasers, napalm, torpedoes, ICBMs, or emissions of electromagnetic radiation such as radio waves, microwaves, infra-red radiation, visible light, UV, X-rays, alpha, beta and gamma rays, neutrons, neutrinos, positrons, N-rays, knives, stones, bricks, spit-wads, spears, javelins etc.).

    Other restrictions may apply. Breach of these conditions is likely to cause unquantifiable loss that may not be capable of remedy by the payment of damages.
     
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  7. JBurton

    JBurton Signtologist

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    I'll say most cities in my lovely state don't ask for engineering, even the ones that are the most stringent concerning size, setbacks, what have you, could care less. That would have saved the new hospital in my hometown from a 2k dollar bill from us to remove a sign and re set it. The 'competition' opted for 6"x6"x1/16" aluminum tube on a 6'x8' lit directional sign. The sign was barely a year old and leaning 30 degrees out. After digging it up, we realized it had almost no concrete, or rather sakrete me thinks...
     
  8. equippaint

    equippaint Very Active Member

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    100%. Think about it, you made 1 person sign it in a sketchy scenario but no one else. Dumb analogy, bartender serves a drunk and takes their keys... guy begs for them back so you say well ok but only if you sign this paper saying that you wont drive. If he kills someone, do you honestly think that paper will keep you out of a mess when you didn't make anyone else ever do that? That in itself says that you knew what was gonna happen
     
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  9. JBurton

    JBurton Signtologist

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    I see where you are coming from I suppose. I'm trying to think of my own example, but drawing a blank. Gun dealer says don't shoot anybody, car dealer says don't wreck, these are all boilerplate for them I suppose.
    So now you have me thinking, if I always include such statements in my fine print, would I be better off?
    "All warranties void if sign is used as weapon, intentionally or by accident"
     
  10. equippaint

    equippaint Very Active Member

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    This truck is not responsible for broken windshields
    I took business law classes in college and this example stuck with me:
    parking lot sign reading: Store is not responsible for damage caused by shopping carts. Totally untrue statement in itself but the disclaimer shows the store knows their carts cause damage which puts the burden on them to make sure that it does not happen
     
  11. Texas_Signmaker

    Texas_Signmaker Very Active Signmaker

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    Equippaint is on the right track with the truck sign and shopping cart sign. They are useless because you cant waive negligence.
     
  12. Gino

    Gino Premium Subscriber

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    If you make the sign, without knowing what is possible, let alone legal, you'd be in a lotta trouble. You're the professional and supposed to know the right procedure(s) like getting the permit, having it approved and having an engineer figure out what is needed. Days of our doing it are gone....... unless you don't mind losing your business and perhaps your home, if something should go wrong, since you didn't have all your ducks in a row, upfront. No idea what kinda sign you're anticipating putting up, but if it let lose up there, your sign could be creating quite a bit of havoc from that high up. Even if you had pictures of what was there before, does not mean the codes haven't changed since that one was installed. You're flying blind with this one...... at this point. Walk away, now, while you can..... or do your homework.

    No waiver will get ya outta this if/when something goes horribly wrong.
     
  13. Billct2

    Billct2 Major Contributor

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    So if I sell a 4x8 site sign to someone and they do a bad install and it blows away in a storm and trashes someone's car I'm liable?
    If someone comes to me to buy a sign and they tell me what they want I would think my liability ends at the door..
    Signs don't kill, bad sign installers do.
     
  14. Gino

    Gino Premium Subscriber

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    For the most part, no, you would not be liable, but in this case, the OP knows ALL the information as to where it's going, what it's going on and it would be his duty to inform them of some of the pitfalls, before making it.

    If your customer came in and ordered a 4x8 sign and told you he's gonna put it on a pole 20' in the air, wouldn't you ask a few questions and warn him of the dangers ?? I would think one would offer up all the information as to why it would be a bad idea.
     
  15. TXFB.INS

    TXFB.INS Very Active Member

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    Thank you for the suggestions.

    we have verbally already expressed the concerns and our suggestions.
    However, people tend to remember what they want, need or benefit from.
    this is the reason I'm looking for a paper trailer so they can have a physical record.
     
  16. Gino

    Gino Premium Subscriber

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    How would a waiver save you as mentioned by others, if you knew it was a bad idea and you just passed the blame or worries onto the next guy, using a waiver as your excuse ??
     
  17. Billct2

    Billct2 Major Contributor

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    If they ask me how to install it and I provide specific information...maybe I'm assuming some liability, especially if it's written, at least enough to end up talking to a lawyer.
    But if they say,
    "I'm installing this on a 20 pole" and I say you better be sure you do a good job, I doubt there would be any liability.
    So if I'm not confident in their ability to install a sign properly I should refuse to sell it to them?
    Like I said a simple site sign can be deadly if not installed right. Do I have to vet some construction guys ability to install it before I sell it to him?
    Sounds like this client is in the heavy contracting business, does he tell them they don't know what they're doing?
     
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  18. JBurton

    JBurton Signtologist

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    I should look into the wording from the wholesalers concerning installation. Of course they only sell to sign companies, so I'm assuming that they would be indemnified from the get go?
     
  19. Johnny Best

    Johnny Best Very Active Member

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    So if I make a small sticker for a guy, he installs it on his car window and someone cuts their finger on the sticker, am I liable or the manufacture of the material. Where does the chain of the responsibility of the product stop. I don't remember a piece of paper from 3M telling me they are not responsible for anything.
    He makes a sign cabinet, they put it on a pole, pole falls over with sign cabinet on it. I think someone needs to find out how that pole and base were made is what I would tell them.
     
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  20. unclebun

    unclebun Very Active Member

    Why would you need a waiver if you're not installing the sign? You're just selling a cash and carry sign. No warranty on any of it, since it's not installed by you, no liability since you have no idea how it's going to be used. No different from when you buy lumber from the lumberyard to build a deck. The lumberyard has no liability for the deck if you build it wrong and it collapses.
     
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