J Hill Designs
New Member
The only way I would trust PVC in that scenario is if it was fully back-supported with framework
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PVC For Outside
- Thread starter vman
- Start date
klemgraphics
New Member
Would you trust it if it was supported within 3-4" of the perimiter as well as some cross braces through the center?
Almost thinking I should just forget it and use mdo like it was before.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
Use whatever substrate you so desire. I'm just trying to open yours...... and some other eyes here to the fact, if MDO is prepped and prepared properly, it can easily last 15 or 20 years. It takes a few extra minutes here and there and some attention to the little things to do this.
Generally, we're doing many projects at once and the various projects are in any given stage on any given day. What I'm saying is, it's nothing for us to schedule a few MDO projects and start some of them on the same day, cutting out the various shapes and then going to town getting them ready to letter. However, we try real hard not to have panels out drying while we're cutting new ones or sanding something else. Our shop is only 8,800 sq ft, but we're still conscience of air-borne particles traveling and landing on other projects. Planning these things, unless you only do one or to projects at a time, helps get these thing done more like an assembly line thus creating a much better end product.
Kinda like, it your spraying in your booth, you're not gonna wear a good suit and tie while you're doing it... it might get ruined.
Never thought about how much more solid through and through Azek is in comparison
Hi Pat,
Thanks, and well, I'm replying to this message about 3 years later but, I've learned a lot since then. For one thing, the PVC I get from my supplier sucks. All of it sucks, Komatex, Sintra, whatever. But, Azek? Now that's a different story altogether ("now that's a different story altogether). Azek mills like no body's business. I love that stuff. Problem with PVC (Komatex, Sintra, etc) is that if doesn't machine well. V-grooving it doesn't come out clean at all. Very grainy and pretty much impossible to sand. Multiple, multiple coats of heavy filler primer and sanding and, hell, I might as well carve it by hand. I have some scrap Azek, and I'm going to test some v-grooving on it. Then of course there's all the variables. I have been using 37-82 Onsrud V-Groove bits for a few years now and am wondering if getting an insert V-Groove, (like Amana's) might be much more productive. Then there's speed and feed. It would be nice if all the sites selling these bits (I'm speaking specifically "V-Groove" bits) would give speeds and feeds for wood and pvc considering these are probably going to be the only things these bits will be used for. Ok, that's my rant at 5:14am. I'm going back to bed....
Hi Pat,
Thanks, and well, I'm replying to this message about 3 years later but, I've learned a lot since then. For one thing, the PVC I get from my supplier sucks. All of it sucks, Komatex, Sintra, whatever. But, Azek? Now that's a different story altogether ("now that's a different story altogether). Azek mills like no body's business. I love that stuff. Problem with PVC (Komatex, Sintra, etc) is that if doesn't machine well. V-grooving it doesn't come out clean at all. Very grainy and pretty much impossible to sand. Multiple, multiple coats of heavy filler primer and sanding and, hell, I might as well carve it by hand. I have some scrap Azek, and I'm going to test some v-grooving on it. Then of course there's all the variables. I have been using 37-82 Onsrud V-Groove bits for a few years now and am wondering if getting an insert V-Groove, (like Amana's) might be much more productive. Then there's speed and feed. It would be nice if all the sites selling these bits (I'm speaking specifically "V-Groove" bits) would give speeds and feeds for wood and pvc considering these are probably going to be the only things these bits will be used for. Ok, that's my rant at 5:14am. I'm going back to bed....
Jillbeans
New Member
I've been a sign gal for 29 years...and for almost a year now, I've worked in the rail shop (PVC) at a local fence company who sells AZEK (their banners are really ugly) :Big Laugh
You live in CT, so any PVC sign substrate you use is gonna warp in the heat or shatter in the cold. AZEK is for decks, yes it's heavy (believe me I know, you should feel my biceps) but in my opinion, PVC is not for signs unless it's some special type.
I've used Komatex (I call it Komatose), it's chippy to cut and it warps. I use Alumalite mainly, or regular aluminum blanks I get via Glantz. Fot painted signs, I use factory finished MDO which I then re-paint and seal the edges.
Love....Jill
You live in CT, so any PVC sign substrate you use is gonna warp in the heat or shatter in the cold. AZEK is for decks, yes it's heavy (believe me I know, you should feel my biceps) but in my opinion, PVC is not for signs unless it's some special type.
I've used Komatex (I call it Komatose), it's chippy to cut and it warps. I use Alumalite mainly, or regular aluminum blanks I get via Glantz. Fot painted signs, I use factory finished MDO which I then re-paint and seal the edges.
Love....Jill
Dovette
New Member
back a few years ago when PVC hit the market I started using it NO PROBLEMS. I usually route plaques or route out letters. Well this year Ive had to replace 2 signs I did because they started warping within 2 weeks after install and these were 3/4" pvc. I called the supplier and sent pics of the signage to them....and then of course, as usual the BS started....
"Well did you specifically order interior or exterior PVC".....uh WTF!? I had no idea there was 2 kinds and was never asked when I placed order if I wanted interior or exterior.
So without the help of the distributor here is what I suggest. If you are to paint pvc a dark color make damn sure it aint facing west or south. Ive got tons of pvc out there over the years and NOTHING has happened to them all this time.
I honestly belive that these companies start out using great products and then later find crap products an start sneaking them to us and WE end up being the gerbils to test them and when they fail distributor doesnt care
Distributors have to move to cheaper products to be more competitive with pricing.
If some of the smaller sign companies would stop undercutting eachother in order to get jobs and start working on better quality, then distributors wouldn't have to switch to cheaper products.
...Just my 2¢
Marlene
New Member
[QUOTECompanies have to move to cheaper products to be more competitive with pricing.
...Just my 2¢][/QUOTE]
and there is the problem as it makes it hard to sell the right material for the job when someone else is selling stuff isn't at a low price. makes it hard for sign makers who know materials as it is difficult to explain to a customer why it cost more. being "competitive" is what is wrecking our industry with cheap junk.
...Just my 2¢][/QUOTE]
and there is the problem as it makes it hard to sell the right material for the job when someone else is selling stuff isn't at a low price. makes it hard for sign makers who know materials as it is difficult to explain to a customer why it cost more. being "competitive" is what is wrecking our industry with cheap junk.
CES020
New Member
I believe the manufacture says Komatex isn't an outdoor product. Their outdoor product is Komacell. Komacell has a really slick face, where Komatex has a slight texture, if I remember right.
Billct2
Active Member
The biggest problem I have is with products obviously being changed, for whatever reason, and the only way I find out is when they fail prematurely.
I don't undestand why we can't get a 1/2"-3/4" solid core exterior prefinished substate that can be cut to shape. Straight edge signs are doable with several current products & fabrication methods, but the time involved in cutting and prepping a shape from MDO is a killer and I've had issues with MDO not being what it used to be too.
I don't undestand why we can't get a 1/2"-3/4" solid core exterior prefinished substate that can be cut to shape. Straight edge signs are doable with several current products & fabrication methods, but the time involved in cutting and prepping a shape from MDO is a killer and I've had issues with MDO not being what it used to be too.
AnvilSigns
New Member
Kommerling
You are correct according to the calls I've recently placed to manufactures. Komatex is intended for interior use according to Kommerling (the manufacturer). Komacel is their exterior grade PVC and has a hard slick surface like PVC piping. Komacel Plus has a slight texture for paint or ink to grip to. I wish my distributor was more clear about the difference in their intended uses...
Kommerling's site was very informative on the differences as well as expected longevity and expansion.
http://www.kommerlingusa.com/pdf/KomaTex.pdf
http://www.kommerlingusa.com/pdf/KomaCel.pdf
You are correct according to the calls I've recently placed to manufactures. Komatex is intended for interior use according to Kommerling (the manufacturer). Komacel is their exterior grade PVC and has a hard slick surface like PVC piping. Komacel Plus has a slight texture for paint or ink to grip to. I wish my distributor was more clear about the difference in their intended uses...
Kommerling's site was very informative on the differences as well as expected longevity and expansion.
http://www.kommerlingusa.com/pdf/KomaTex.pdf
http://www.kommerlingusa.com/pdf/KomaCel.pdf
CES020
New Member
I talked to the factory rep once about it and he said very specifically not to use Komatex outside. He explained why but I couldn't accurately tell you why. It had to do with the cellular structure and make up of the PVC. He said the Komacell was engineered to withstand UV, but UV would break down Komatex.