Question about wide format Latex Quality

[Quark]

Hi guys, we're considering a latex printer and recently ordered some samples from a large wholesale printer who utilizes latex technology. My understanding they print on 6 color machine with latex ink in 6, 10 and 12 pass, with 12picoliter heads. While the color is rich and vibrant, we see that the tightness of the print is not there (at least on the samples we received) -

- vector objects (including vector texts) are not tight at all, and are blurry, with lots of satellites, shadows and blur;
- solid colors are grainy and pixilated (you can see the dot pattern mixture very pronouncedly);
- skin tones, mid tones and some gradients are very muddy and grainy.

This is not at all that we expected. We compared the latex samples to our eco solvent JV300 prints and the quality compared side by side is night and day. Yet we hear only compliments and raving feedback for the latex print technology.

anybody has any comments on latex quality? what should I look for to get it?

 

[TomK]

We use our hp 310 latex for decals and stickers, love our colors but the graininess is an absolute problem, and has been discussed on here before.

To get around it, we print at 16p, 600x600, 200% ink density, which helps but is still not what I was hoping for, for high quality stickers.

The colors are awesome, my issue has been all about graininess, and I've been told it is due to droplet size as you have mentioned.

For our higher quality/higher priced items, I am actually looking at photo inkjet machines like the Epson p800 or Epson SC p7000. All of our stickers are indoor, so I'm not concerned about overlam on em or anything like that.

The challenge when looking at the inkjets is finding a vinyl material I can use on them, as we normally do all of our stickers on Oracal 3628 or 3268 or 3620.

I can't do eco sol as we are a home based business, and the Roland's give off nasty fumes, and wouldn't work well in our "shop" which is our finished basement.

Anyone using any quality inkjet/aqueous machines with rolled vinyl?

Love my latex, it does well on larger stuff, but anything that requires close viewing, not so much.

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

What is the intended application of the prints?

 

[TomK]

What is the intended application of the prints?

That for the OP or me?

 

[Bly]

This feller says the only mode to get 1200dpi from is 18 pass.
http://h20435.www2.hp.com/t5/HP-Latex-300-Series-Discussions/HP-Latex-360-1200x1200ppp/td-p/98673
I've never been curious enough to find out.
The quality is fine for nearly all signage applications.

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

That for the OP or me?

OP, you clearly said indoor close viewing.

 

[Quark]

OP, you clearly said indoor close viewing.

It was couple of banners. While I see there you going with this our quality standards even for banners are much higher than the samples level of quality

 

[Bly]

Maybe go to a dealer and have some samples printed on a demo machine.
Wholesale printers are usually geared for speed, not quality.

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

It was couple of banners. While I see there you going with this our quality standards even for banners are much higher than the samples level of quality

Ours our too and we are more than happy with the latex along with our clients. Have stuck with it through 3 generations and soon to be 4 generations. I just wonder what settings they used, the rip options, and etc.

You can't expect fine art from these machines but they are more than capable of high quality imaging.

 

[player]

Am I to understand ecosol is better for non grainy prints?

Another latex issue I have been hearing about is image distortion due to the high heat. It shows up as sagging in the middle so print/cut won't align and blueprints will not be straight.

 

[AF]

Am I to understand ecosol is better for non grainy prints?

Another latex issue I have been hearing about is image distortion due to the high heat. It shows up as sagging in the middle so print/cut won't align and blueprints will not be straight.

Graininess at very close viewing distance is a property of the large 12 picoliter droplets. Custom media profiles with high light ink usage make a noticeable reduction in graininess at the expense of total gamut. Eco/solvent is better in this regard.

Bowing occurs in some but not all medias. So while HP is correct in claiming that you can print on almost anything, the bowing can be a problem. You can add bowing compensation in the rip and also in the front panel of the printer.

 

[SignProPlus-Chip]

We have been running an HP L2600 for over two years now. I have never experienced an graininess at all. Colors are super smooth, and more vibrant than anything I output on a ecosol.

I print at 10 pass and 600 DPI as a standard, FWIW.

 

[TomK]

We have been running an HP L2600 for over two years now. I have never experienced an graininess at all. Colors are super smooth, and more vibrant than anything I output on a ecosol.

I print at 10 pass and 600 DPI as a standard, FWIW.

What are you printing? Any of our signage is fine, but when we print highly detailed stickers at 1" x 1" or something like that, the [FONT=verdana, arial, tahoma, calibri, geneva, sans-serif]graininess is apparent since these are being looked at from several inches to a foot away.[/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, tahoma, calibri, geneva, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, tahoma, calibri, geneva, sans-serif]No problems if I print signs at 7x10 or larger, I run those at 10p and they look great, since most of them are solid colors.[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, tahoma, calibri, geneva, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, tahoma, calibri, geneva, sans-serif] [/FONT]

 

[SignProPlus-Chip]

We print everything and anything. Stickers, signage, wraps etc...

What are you printing? Any of our signage is fine, but when we print highly detailed stickers at 1" x 1" or something like that, the graininess is apparent since these are being looked at from several inches to a foot away.

No problems if I print signs at 7x10 or larger, I run those at 10p and they look great, since most of them are solid colors.

 

[TomK]

We print everything and anything. Stickers, signage, wraps etc...

Can you post or PM me a picture of some of your stickers, I'd like to see the quality.

 

[Correct Color]

The problem with trying to make a determination of how well you might expect a given printer to work based on a printed image from another source is that you really have no idea how the image was actually printed.

Meaning how the particular machine was profiled and how well it was profiled. It bears repeating over and over and over again: In this business, profiles are everything. Profiles create the dots a printer prints. A great printer running crummy profiles will give crummy results.

Custom media profiles with high light ink usage make a noticeable reduction in graininess at the expense of total gamut. Eco/solvent is better in this regard.

Errr... Actually, no. Unless the profiler just doesn't know what he's doing, there's no gamut reduction at all in using aggressive light ink curves. In fact, the whole purpose of light inks is to reduce graininess, so not profiling to use them to do that means you've wasted the money you spent on having them. Also I'd say that one of the advantages of Latex used to be that it could be profiled to be less grainy than just about any comparable eco-solvent machine out there. But HP killed that possibility when they made the 300 series contone only.

We have been running an HP L2600 for over two years now. I have never experienced an graininess at all. Colors are super smooth, and more vibrant than anything I output on a ecosol.

The 26500-260 was not contone. In terms of graininess, the 300 series was a huge step backward. I think HP may have gotten the message about just how terrible the ink splits that were built into the very first 300 contone settings were and may have modified them -- which I kind of think may have been at least partly responsible for their disastrous firmware upgrade -- but they still leave a lot to be desired.

As far as vibrancy goes, however, properly profiled, at similar speeds on comparable material, eco-solvent will always have a somewhat larger gamut, more 3/4 tone colors and a better black point than any latex currently on the market.

 

[SellersSign&Design]

I'm running an old dinosaur L25500 and regularly get compliments from customers on how good my prints look. I mostly run 12 pass 600 dpi too, so nothing crazy there. I'm very happy with the latex, and I'm very particular about my work.

 

[TomK]

I'm running an old dinosaur L25500 and regularly get compliments from customers on how good my prints look. I mostly run 12 pass 600 dpi too, so nothing crazy there. I'm very happy with the latex, and I'm very particular about my work.

Here is a prior thread on the graniness issues of the HP 300 series.


http://www.signs101.com/forums/showthread.php?129072-HP-latex-310-Print-Quality-Grainy


I'm having the same issues, switched to 16p 200% ink density and it helped the colors a ton, but still a bit of graniness. At some point there won't be much you can do because of the size of the droplets the wide formats use.


Or at least, that's what I've been told.

 

[bigben]

The problem with trying to make a determination of how well you might expect a given printer to work based on a printed image from another source is that you really have no idea how the image was actually printed.

Meaning how the particular machine was profiled and how well it was profiled. It bears repeating over and over and over again: In this business, profiles are everything. Profiles create the dots a printer prints. A great printer running crummy profiles will give crummy results.



Errr... Actually, no. Unless the profiler just doesn't know what he's doing, there's no gamut reduction at all in using aggressive light ink curves. In fact, the whole purpose of light inks is to reduce graininess, so not profiling to use them to do that means you've wasted the money you spent on having them. Also I'd say that one of the advantages of Latex used to be that it could be profiled to be less grainy than just about any comparable eco-solvent machine out there. But HP killed that possibility when they made the 300 series contone only.



The 26500-260 was not contone. In terms of graininess, the 300 series was a huge step backward. I think HP may have gotten the message about just how terrible the ink splits that were built into the very first 300 contone settings were and may have modified them -- which I kind of think may have been at least partly responsible for their disastrous firmware upgrade -- but they still leave a lot to be desired.

As far as vibrancy goes, however, properly profiled, at similar speeds on comparable material, eco-solvent will always have a somewhat larger gamut, more 3/4 tone colors and a better black point than any latex currently on the market.

I have a L26500 with caldera/easy media and an I1 pro2. I make my own profiles with the basic training I've got from my dealer. But I wish I could understand more all the details in the process. Is there any web site you can suggest I could learn more on the subject?

 

[ericm]

Can you post a pic of the samples that you got???? I'm curious to see what they look like
This banner was printed at 8pass