Raster images print with greenish hue

[Signed Out]

Whenever we print large high res. raster images for wraps or signs, the image always comes out a bit dark and with a greenish hue to it. Printing on a roland xj540 eco sol max ink and we use stock rvw profiles. Over the last few years we have been combating this in many different ways. Basically trial and error for each image that gives us trouble. Do a test print, mess with hue/balance, variations, brightness, etc. in photoshop, test, test until we are happy with the results. Problem is this can be very time consuming and a nuisance as it slows down other jobs doing little test prints all the time. I'm pretty sure this is pretty common as I've seen many threads on it in the past.

My question is does anybody have a quick remedy that can apply to pretty much all raster images? Seems that they always print with the same, dark and greenish hue. So maybe there is an adjustment that can be done in either photoshop or versaworks that would all but eliminate this problem. I would think it would be better to remedy it in photoshop because there are usually vector graphics layered over the raster image, and if the adjustment is done in versaworks, then it would affect the vector output as well.

 

[J Hill Designs]

have you tried different rendering intents?

 

[Signed Out]

have you tried different rendering intents?

By rendering intents, do you mean the color management section in versaworks? If so, we print 99% on U.S. Preset, we have used max impact in the past to solve transparency issues. Is there a setting that would help with the dark and greenish raster images? Would the setting have an adverse affect on vectors using spot or pantones? Which rendering intent would you suggest? I can try them all out but please share if you have found one to work best.

If I'm way off on what rendering intents are, please explain.

Thanks,

 

[J Hill Designs]

no help with versaworks, I dont use it, but look for perceptual, relative colorimetric, etc

 

[Signed Out]

no help with versaworks, I dont use it, but look for perceptual, relative colorimetric, etc

I can change this setting in versaworks for both vector and raster images, so this might work. Currently while using "U.S. Preset" the rendering intent is set to colorimetric for both vector and raster. Going to try changing the intent for rasters to perceptual and see how that works, there are also a few other choice that I will try as well. Is there generally a better setting to use for rendering raster images than colorimetric?

 

[P Wagner]

Whenever we print large high res. raster images for wraps or signs, the image always comes out a bit dark and with a greenish hue to it. Printing on a roland xj540 eco sol max ink and we use stock rvw profiles. Over the last few years we have been combating this in many different ways. Basically trial and error for each image that gives us trouble. Do a test print, mess with hue/balance, variations, brightness, etc. in photoshop, test, test until we are happy with the results. Problem is this can be very time consuming and a nuisance as it slows down other jobs doing little test prints all the time. I'm pretty sure this is pretty common as I've seen many threads on it in the past.

My question is does anybody have a quick remedy that can apply to pretty much all raster images? Seems that they always print with the same, dark and greenish hue. So maybe there is an adjustment that can be done in either photoshop or versaworks that would all but eliminate this problem. I would think it would be better to remedy it in photoshop because there are usually vector graphics layered over the raster image, and if the adjustment is done in versaworks, then it would affect the vector output as well.

This is the classic color management problem that I have seen for over a decade in literally hundreds of facilities. You are using a printer and RIP from one company (Roland in this case), media from unknown manufacturers (presumably you know this but did not mention it in your post) but i would make an educated guess that they are not Roland branded media products in most (or perhaps all) cases. When the color in the file does not render as desired (greenish overtones in neutrals in this case), the user goes back into the design program to 'tweak' color in the file, in order to get the printer to produce a sell-able result.

As you have stated, this workflow is extremely wasteful in time and materials, not to mention hugely frustrating to the operators. In this case, the source of the problem is in the Media Profile in the RIP, and not in the job file itself. Many of the RIP-based canned profiles for DX4 based Roland printers exhibited this problem, and the solution is conceptually very simple: use a media profile that more faithfully reproduces the color in the file. Perhaps this new media profile comes from the manufacturer of the media, at least in some cases. Again, this involves pulling down Versaworks RML files from vendor web sites, plugging them into VW Media Explorer, and testing to check the results with that media profile on the media in question.

The other option is to truly take control of your workflow, and create custom media profiles that are built specifically on your machine, operating in your environment, to most accurately reproduce the colors in the file, the first time, and every time. There is a cost to this (of course) and there is a learning curve associated with it as well. Roland offers tutorials and white papers on this subject on their web site to help. You will also need a device to measure color called a spectrophotometer. The XRite (Gretag Macbeth) EyeOne is the de-facto standard device in the smaller commercial digital space. They can be acquired used on Ebay or new from XRite dealers.

There are those that say this is all unnecessary (looking at you Bob), but in the end, it is really a choice of how you want to work. Do you want to manipulate color in every file going forward to correct the flawed back-end of your workflow, or do you want to fix the source of the problem (flawed media profile) itself, and then run jobs confidently, knowing that the RIP is reproducing color as faithfully as possible, with the defined gamut of the output device? Your call.

 

[J Hill Designs]

there should be both relative and absolute colorimetric - my default is relative colori

 

[Signed Out]

there should be both relative and absolute colorimetric - my default is relative colori

No option for relative and absolute colorimetric/perceptual in vw. Options are colorimetric, perceptual, absolut, saturation, ink limits... but nothing that says relative.

Did a test with raster set to perceptual, it was very slightly brighter but still has a greenish hue.

 

[Signed Out]

This is the classic color management problem that I have seen for over a decade in literally hundreds of facilities. You are using a printer and RIP from one company (Roland in this case), media from unknown manufacturers (presumably you know this but did not mention it in your post) but i would make an educated guess that they are not Roland branded media products in most (or perhaps all) cases. When the color in the file does not render as desired (greenish overtones in neutrals in this case), the user goes back into the design program to 'tweak' color in the file, in order to get the printer to produce a sell-able result.

As you have stated, this workflow is extremely wasteful in time and materials, not to mention hugely frustrating to the operators. In this case, the source of the problem is in the Media Profile in the RIP, and not in the job file itself. Many of the RIP-based canned profiles for DX4 based Roland printers exhibited this problem, and the solution is conceptually very simple: use a media profile that more faithfully reproduces the color in the file. Perhaps this new media profile comes from the manufacturer of the media, at least in some cases. Again, this involves pulling down Versaworks RML files from vendor web sites, plugging them into VW Media Explorer, and testing to check the results with that media profile on the media in question.

The other option is to truly take control of your workflow, and create custom media profiles that are built specifically on your machine, operating in your environment, to most accurately reproduce the colors in the file, the first time, and every time. There is a cost to this (of course) and there is a learning curve associated with it as well. Roland offers tutorials and white papers on this subject on their web site to help. You will also need a device to measure color called a spectrophotometer. The XRite (Gretag Macbeth) EyeOne is the de-facto standard device in the smaller commercial digital space. They can be acquired used on Ebay or new from XRite dealers.

There are those that say this is all unnecessary (looking at you Bob), but in the end, it is really a choice of how you want to work. Do you want to manipulate color in every file going forward to correct the flawed back-end of your workflow, or do you want to fix the source of the problem (flawed media profile) itself, and then run jobs confidently, knowing that the RIP is reproducing color as faithfully as possible, with the defined gamut of the output device? Your call.

I hear what your saying, and it's been something I've wanted to do for a while now, create our own profiles. I know there is a fairly steep learning curve and cost associtated with creating our own profiles. And having never used a custom built profile, it's hard to know if it's worth the investment. Would you be able and willing to print a tricky raster file with both a canned (rvw or stock rip profile) and a custom built profile and post side by side results for signs101 to see? I know it's a lot to ask, maybe it's been done before?

 

[Signed Out]

Castek,

Thanks for the advice on trying the vinyl manufactures profile! We use mostly oracal, and have their profiles, but never really noticed any difference when using the oracal profiles instead of rvw profiles before, mostly vector stuff though. So we've always just used the rvw profiles. Just took another test off the printer using the oracal 3751 profile and it took the greenish hue right out. Still would love to see a side by side comparison of canned profiles vs custom built ones.

 

[guitarguy69]

Here is a poor attempt to show the difference between stock printer profiles and a custom profile I created with i1. Canned profile on the left is a bit to the green side, created profile on the right is pretty neutural. Sure helped me out to learn to produce my own profiles. Hiring people to come out at a huge expense compaired to learning to do it for yourself,...........priceless.


Edit: Sorry the second picture looks pinkish, it was taken below crappy warehouse lighting. In person it is quite neutural.

 

[techsign33]

Try check box preserve primary color then print.set the matching method colorimetric

 

[P Wagner]

I hear what your saying, and it's been something I've wanted to do for a while now, create our own profiles. I know there is a fairly steep learning curve and cost associtated with creating our own profiles. And having never used a custom built profile, it's hard to know if it's worth the investment. Would you be able and willing to print a tricky raster file with both a canned (rvw or stock rip profile) and a custom built profile and post side by side results for signs101 to see? I know it's a lot to ask, maybe it's been done before?

I will check into the possibility of doing this.

The difficulty is that the lighting environment where the observation happens is critical, these inkjet inks are not opaque and are prone to metamerism. The trickiest images will be grayscale or neutral images, and those with reference (spot) colors.

 

[PRS Bryan]

I know this may seem obvious, but I have missed it before.

Make sure your images are CMYK not RGB.

 

[shoresigns]

Good advice from Castek. Start by getting media profiles that are designed for the actual brand and model # of material you're using. If you're using major manufacturers like Avery and 3M this shouldn't be a problem. You second problem is colour management. I find in most cases, U.S. Pre-Press works well for photos while the Sign&Display preset is our default setting because it works best for logos and bold colours in vector graphics.

 

[bob]

I know this may seem obvious, but I have missed it before.

Make sure your images are CMYK not RGB.

Absolutely not. Always send RGB bitmaps and always print at least 4x the image resolution. I.e. if you print at 720dpi send 150ppi or so images.

Your RIP will handle rendering RBG images into CMYK far more adroitly than any software you own. Let it.

The 4x resolution difference gives 2^16+- printer dots per image pixel. This allows the RIP 2^16+- possible color combinations per image pixel.

I always do the above, have the bitmap rendering intent set to 'Perceptual', and use the highest dither algorithm available. With full color images what I see is what I get. Always.

 

[PRS Bryan]

Absolutely not. Always send RGB bitmaps and always print at least 4x the image resolution. I.e. if you print at 720dpi send 150ppi or so images.

Your RIP will handle rendering RBG images into CMYK far more adroitly than any software you own. Let it.

The 4x resolution difference gives 2^16+- printer dots per image pixel. This allows the RIP 2^16+- possible color combinations per image pixel.

I always do the above, have the bitmap rendering intent set to 'Perceptual', and use the highest dither algorithm available. With full color images what I see is what I get. Always.

Interesting.

When I let Versaworks handle the conversion, I will get a darker color with a blue-green cast.

I have much more success having Photoshop convert it. The difference is quite noticeable.

By success I mean a closer match to the companies trademark colors (Sinclair Green, Phillips Red, Shell Yellow) . The majority of work I do is for established petroleum companies.

I thought converting in Photoshop was standard. I have had batches of graphics returned (one today) if I let Versaworks convert it.

Whatever works, I guess.