Reflective Paint? Reflective text?

[RyanT]

I have a customer that would like white reflective letters on a blue/green non-reflective background. This will be for both 2ft x 4ft signs (planning on MDO substrate) and 18in x 24in yard-type signs (substrate TBD, probably alumalite?). Trick is they will be up for 4 weeks a year but they would like them to last 5 to 10 years, which includes a lot of rough loading/unloading by volunteers and shed storage in between.

I'm considering reflective vinyl, but with rough handling and sliding I'm not sure the raised vinyl letters won't get destroyed. Has anyone had luck doping enamel paint with glass beads or finding reflective white paint?

My plan is to paint the background on the large signs and either paint or vinyl the background on the small ones, then add the letters via painted mask or cut vinyl. Is there a better way?

Thank you!

 

[Billct2]

I agree, we can't be responsible for handling. Providing a sleeve for storage and a big warning label on the back is the best you can do.

 

[printhog]

If you've ever tried to remove reflective you'll know that it's a bear once it sticks. Comes off in little chunks. I have done tons of it.
The best solution would be to print the entire face and laminate with a suitable floor graphics grade laminate or polyurethane clear coat. Then apply to a substrate that has had the edges primed with 3M adhesive activator primer #94. Pretty much bulletproof at that point.

You could use cut vinyl and then clear coat with several layers of polyurethane clear and it will last fine, or use a cast cold laminate vinyl, but the laminate will show an air gap around the letter edges and will eventually fail there.

My suggestions are based on making thousands of reflective billboards and decades of working with reflective films for freeway signs and major outdoor advertising firms. I based the above suggestion on readily available enclosed bead engineer grade films..

If you're using prismatic reflective sheeting, then your edge relief issue will be compounded by the edge collecting dirt and debris in the prisms. Edged sealing is required for that film.

"Doping" paint as you referenced will not make your client happy at all. The glass beads will be abrasive, (think 50 grit sandpaper - literally), they will scuff off regularly, scratching everything around them, and not reflect at all when they get wet. This is the very worst option. BTDT.

Reflective white paint is actually a medium gray color, and apart from difficulty finding it, is a messy process. It's made from tiny shells ground into a binder that MUST stay blended while applying it. (Think of painting with mayonnaise with dirt in it). It isn't very strong and would have adhesion problems right off. Further, you can't clear coat it or you lose 80% of the reflective properties. It also stains real easily from hand oils and improper handling.

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[RyanT]

Wow, thank you for the advice. I'll skip the paint+glassbead route and go with reflective vinyl (Oralite 5300 or 5500 probably) with a poly clearcoat over everything. The dust/dirt buildup around the lettering is a good point; the clear poly should fix that.

I would like to print and laminate the whole thing as you said, but I do not have the equipment to do so (yet...) and am uncomfortable manually applying a print that big. Someday I'll have the tools to do it.

 

[2B]

Wow, thank you for the advice. I'll skip the paint+glassbead route and go with reflective vinyl (Oralite 5300 or 5500 probably) with a poly clearcoat over everything. The dust/dirt buildup around the lettering is a good point; the clear poly should fix that.

I would like to print and laminate the whole thing as you said, but I do not have the equipment to do so (yet...) and am uncomfortable manually applying a print that big. Someday I'll have the tools to do it.

this seems to be a lot of effort for this project. how many signs are they wanting? and with that life expectancy make sure you are changing enough to cover the years in use.

if you are going to use MDO make sure you seal the edges and use trim cap for a longer life

like the others have said, round the corners and use reflective film.
you can advice on proper storage but once they leave your shop it is on them for care and longevity


for installation, a 2 x 4 is a small size and easy to do with a hand squeegee even if the material does not have air channels. if you are uncomfortable then look into the "Big Squeegee"
Aluminum tools

 

[RyanT]

this seems to be a lot of effort for this project. how many signs are they wanting? and with that life expectancy make sure you are changing enough to cover the years in use.

Eight of this type. Pricing... ugh I don't know, I'm still figuring out how to price based on material costs. I understand that advice usually isn't disclosed here, but if google search "sign pricing" websites are any indication, I'm slightly high.

 

[printhog]

Pricing: two ways..
To match a quick sign type business model you multiply the materials by 5. This assures your gross margin is in line with successful businesses. At no time should your gross fall below 2.35 x of your cost. That keeps you above the 65% gross margin SBA suggests. So you have a broad range there. BUT... this model assumes you account for all expenses needed to do the job 100% ...don't put anything into "inventory" - your client won't be back for 8 years. So whatever bulk you buy for this job costs back to it.

Option two:
Signwriters Pricing Guide has always held that reflective films ADD $6-8 PSF to the overall sign... Per color.. So price a regular sign and add the PSF rate . Then add your total cost for the poly clear and incidentals at 2.35 to 5.5 multiplier.

As for online orders.. although your client could shop on line, what you are making is not a simple sign like they could find online. They've set conditions that no one online will support. And I've yet to find an online reflective provider - if you found one let me know... It's just a rare media that has issues both in high cost of goods and in color and execution. Not something I think they'll find for themselves.

I base these opinions on analysing sign franchises reported margins and on shop cost/price classes my suppliers offered, and on operational expectations my shops have used.

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[RyanT]

Awesome advice, much appreciated. I think pricing is hard for me because I'm pretty cheap myself (RyanT only shops at Goodwill). That makes for low pricing. I'm going to order some reflective to practice with first and figure out how to work with it.

Thanks again!

 

[printhog]

Plotting reflective just requires you increase pressure (typically between 160 - 200 grams) and slow plotter down to about half of 2 mill vinyl speeds of you're using a 30 degree blade. Expect your blade will lose some edge from the media. For drag knife overcut should be .3 to .5 mm to start. Weed immediately after plotting, adhesives have high flow rates and will fill the plot gap overnight. Reflective gets brittle below 60 degrees so keep it warm to plot and process successfully. Use a moderate tack app tape and squeegee firmly. To apply use a hinge along the top, fold it back, peel off the liner from the film working in sections, apply dry for best results. Resqueege after app tape is removed by using the liner as a guard .. slimy side up. Squeegee will slide smoothly on that and you won't risk scratching the film surface. Prep for clear coat by wiping with 70 or 90% isopropyl alcohol and allowing surface to dry in warm room before coating. Good luck.

 

[player]

If you are using Goodwill as your business model, you should definitely get some used plywood and some old paint and just grind up old wine bottles for the reflective.

 

[printhog]

If you are using Goodwill as your business model, you should definitely get some used plywood and some old paint and just grind up old wine bottles for the reflective.

Lol. Goodwill in Sacramento years ago decided to cancel their 30 trailer graphics contract with my shop... $45,000 down the drain. They peddled a donation from a sign supplier for a deep discount on a new plotter and started their own sign shop 6 months after signing the deal and with 26 trailers left.. the only ones we did were the corrugated nasty ones, the remaining smooth sided ones went in-house. The sign supplier knew of our contract. Dirt bags.

The Goodwill CEO's response to my lawyer on enforcing our very binding contract? "Go ahead sue Goodwill.. that'll play out nicely in the papers for your guy.. people love us". For PR reasons we let it go.

Worse yet the Goodwill Sign Shop didn't just do internal work.. nope, they just couldn't leave well enough alone.. they undercut their neighborhood shops' prices and started selling signs to local businesses.

Luckily we were just starting our 3M Scotchprint imaging operation so we quickly filled the gap, but it left a bad taste. So I have a different view of f'ing Goodwill.

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[visual800]

go to a company like vinylgraphics.net and order a whole relective laminated print and be done with it. By the time you paint, glass bead and whatever else you will have more time and energy for other projects. and dont use mdo, go for a better substrate