Researching Digital Printers

[Billct2]

With all your experience do you ever read Signs of The Times, Signcraft, SignBuilder etc?
These all contain articles on wide format printing regularly.
In addition there are a number (mostly free) wide format mags too.
There are also numerous trade shows (which is where I found the answers I needed).
What would you respond if I asked...

"Our company has had mixed results outsourcing electric signs. I want to look into purchasing the equipment to do this in house.

My boss seems to think he wants something that he could do a 4' X 8' with.

Does anyone have advice that would point me in the right direction and as importantly what pitfalls to avoid?

 

[MikePro]

Well, my boss did think that printing directly to the face or MDO would be best. But, is it worth the extra cost space as opposed to printing to vinyl and applying that to the sign?

labor is usually your most expensive product when applying 4x8sheets. if you're pumping out plenty of MDO's, a flatbed printer would be the way to go. They can also still print rolls of material.
Go for it if you can afford to... you won't regret it. I must have applied 2000 MDO's so far in my lifetime, at say even 30min each with trimming/prep/apply (maybe 1hr), that's a hell of a lotta money your printer could be making for you instead.

just make sure you have the space. you need room for the table, and room to feed sheets into it, and possible even room near the printer to store racks of sheets for easy access.
p.s. HORIZONTAL RACKS! Don't stand your stock on end and think you can put those potatochips into your printer and not bust your print heads.

 

[Gino]

Looks like you did all your research on your day off from work. What a delightful and dedicated employee.

Would you mind sharing that same friendship and kindness with us ??


You're gonna catch more flies with sugar than that vinegar mouth of yours. Doesn't matter how long you've been in this trade..... kindness towards those you are seeking help will go much further than your current direction.

This is not to be confused with distaste for your recent replies, but more as good old fashioned advice from your foul temper.

 

[Malkin]

His replies seemed very cordial to me, especially in light of the fairly blunt responses.

The one foul word did not even seem to be expressed negatively.

I usually appreciate your thoughts Gino, but just can't figure where you're coming from this time.

 

[chuckh]

Wow! You guys all study at the Don Rickles School of Interpersonal Relations?
How do you treat your customers when they ask for something but really have no idea what they really need or want? I take the time to ask questions and educate them as best I can. Obviously, I must be out of touch.

 

[bob]

Wow! You guys all study at the Don Rickles School of Interpersonal Relations?
How do you treat your customers when they ask for something but really have no idea what they really need or want? I take the time to ask questions and educate them as best I can. Obviously, I must be out of touch.

Perhaps there in your village there is no difference between someone wanting to spend money and someone who wants to capitalize on someone else's lifetime of experience for no remuneration.

 

[chuckh]

In our village, we try to establish relationships, develop clients, and position ourselves as experts in our field. While we seek and expect compensation for our efforts, our goal is to make our clients feel as if they are part of the process. We will happily work with the one-timer, but will also attempt to make them a long term customer. This method has only worked for us since 1979...

 

[bob]

In our village, we try to establish relationships, develop clients, and position ourselves as experts in our field. While we seek and expect compensation for our efforts, our goal is to make our clients feel as if they are part of the process. We will happily work with the one-timer, but will also attempt to make them a long term customer. This method has only worked for us since 1979...

Then you and your fellow tribesmen do or do not understand the difference between someone who not only is never going to spend a nickel with you, but doesn't know enough to be able to ask a good question, and someone who might? Which is it?

 

[gbarker]

With the exception of the bashing you for not knowing replies I see that you were able to get some good advice such as starting with local suppliers.

Sounds to me like your shop would do fine with a 54" printer that prints on vinyl and a matching (size) laminator. It is best to keep the printer, laminator and materials in a climate controlled space. I would suggest a take-up reel if you go with a regular vinyl printer.

My opinion on direct to substrate printing - If you are planning on printing illuminated panels you will need to research what substrates you can print on. I don't know that you can print directly to acrylic or polycarbonate. Besides, you will want to laminate it and I don't know if a direct to substrate print can be laminated after the fact. Probably can be done but if the laminate messes up your print and material is shot. It would be cheaper to trash a 4x8 print than a 4x8 piece of acrylic or polycarbonate.

my 2cents anyway...

 

[chuckh]

Of course we understand the difference. We just don't have the crystal ball you do. Night night!

 

[Batch]

Then you and your fellow tribesmen do or do not understand the difference between someone who not only is never going to spend a nickel with you, but doesn't know enough to be able to ask a good question, and someone who might? Which is it?

Bob at no point do I recall seeing an offer to do the printing we required. You did offer before you excluded that option, right? As stated, our current problem is getting reliable digital prints. We would like to look into our options.

You are right I wouldn't spend a nickel with you. Because in your business model I do not have the option.

 

[Fatboy]

Why do some people get so agro when a newby ask a question? If you don't like the question what about just ignoring it! Give the guy a break.

 

[Batch]

With the exception of the bashing you for not knowing replies I see that you were able to get some good advice such as starting with local suppliers.

Sounds to me like your shop would do fine with a 54" printer that prints on vinyl and a matching (size) laminator. It is best to keep the printer, laminator and materials in a climate controlled space. I would suggest a take-up reel if you go with a regular vinyl printer.

My opinion on direct to substrate printing - If you are planning on printing illuminated panels you will need to research what substrates you can print on. I don't know that you can print directly to acrylic or polycarbonate. Besides, you will want to laminate it and I don't know if a direct to substrate print can be laminated after the fact. Probably can be done but if the laminate messes up your print and material is shot. It would be cheaper to trash a 4x8 print than a 4x8 piece of acrylic or polycarbonate.

my 2cents anyway...

Thanks, I see it the same way and all the prints we have used to date were not done direct to substrate.

Thanks for the help!

 

[BALLPARK]

Here is a good place to learn about printers.
http://www.wide-format-printers.org/

Create a list of every possible sign that you want to print using this machine, then weigh it vs. what is out there. There is no simple answer but this is my basic thoughts.

10k - 70K = Roland Printer (Just a big fan...)

100k - 500k = Vutek (There is no better printer in the world, just need to a very large bank account that looks something like this $1,000,000,000...lol.

GL in your search, it is very easy to spend 40 hours during a week just locating viable options.


...

This is for the bitter guys that like to bash every noob.

Why do so many people act as if they know it all? The noobs of tomorrow will be better than most sign guys today..lol.

I started as a noob 15 years ago and still feel like a noob in some areas. I might not know everything about everything, but I can make some great signs and even better marketing plans..lol.

Until I see a University offering a Master's Degree in Sign Making...get off your high horse. Chances are you even rub your customers the wrong way.

If this message does not relate to you, then your golden. If it does, don't waste your time with a quote back to me. Not going to read it...

Just wanted to express that some here seem to think they have it all...lol. Why are you not on your island barking orders at your staff?

 

[Gino]

Rather a queer observation, if you ask me. It seems that just about everyone that you find agreeing with you, Bat, hasn’t been in the business very long or hasn’t cut their teeth in yet.

Signs 101 is a place to come and share information and take information and also have fun…. and sometimes its at others' expense and sometimes at our own. No one is ever gonna set up a proper way to find information without breaking rules or procedures because like Ball said, there is no Master’s Degree in Sign Making. However, it is nice to know that whether you are here 5 minutes or five years, there is an appreciation of all answers… good and bad alike. Even in the tasteless or rude answers, there is generally some good information in it…. you just have to sometimes wade through the BS part and cut to the chase.

Malk… that’s probably what you weren’t catching in my earlier post……. If you don’t get along here and you’re new… it at least pays to be the nice guy and you’ll eventually get better information.

There’s no sign etiquette class, so you’re all just stuck with whatever falls into the whole mess. It’s up to each and every individual how they are going to use that information. Take out the colorful adjectives and rude comments and there’s usually something there for you.

I guess what Dan means is…

• What is your target customer…….
  [*]What is your level of expertise both with using software and this type of machinery……..
  [*]What size shop do you have…………
  [*]What is your budget for these additions………………..
  

Obviously, the only thing you know is you want a new piece of equipment and you know how to apply it.

Even bob said you don’t possess any humor. Now that’s a tough act to follow.

Anyway, for what it’s worth, most of the larger electric shops that are now turning to digital printing, happen to be the larger shops that are hurting because of so many smaller shops biting them in the butt every time they lose a bid due to their high overhead.

You wanna blame it on lousy vendors, but you are only trying to cut a middleman out of the picture because making ends meet is getting tougher and tougher. You can’t make a profit and still remain competitive until you bring this stuff in-house. You won’t necessarily have better products, but you’ll have lower overhead… so you think.

Let me ask you a quick question…. if you are such a big electric shop, what percentage of digital printing is in your future… let’s say for the month of July or August or even September ?? Will that thing be cranking out 6 to 8 or 10 hours a day ?? If not, then why spend $60,000 to $100,000 on equipment that all you have to do is find a reliable vendor/supplier and make sure you’re getting quality work at a fair price ?? Remember this also… if you beat your suppliers up over price, you’re never gonna get good quality. You bring those machines in-house and you’ll see just how hard it is to do small volume sales and keep the prices down at the same time… regardless if you’re doing it in-house. The only thing you can control is quality, but the cost of materials will remain the same unless you have some big buying power deal going.

 

[cmyimage]

If you think you might have a lot of job to print in the future, you'd also need a cutter/plotter, because you can doing the cutting while having the printer to print at the same time. If not, you can go with the all-in-one first.

 

[marcsitkin]

Your first printer

Our company has had mixed results outsourcing digiprints. I want to look into purchasing the equipment to do this in house.

My boss seems to think he wants something that he could do a 4' X 8' with.

Does anyone have advice that would point me in the right direction and as importantly what pitfalls to avoid?

If you are having trouble buying digital prints, then you need to learn how to specify what you need. There are plenty of good suppliers to work with. You need to find a few.

Even if you can navigate the maze of what to buy, what materials it will work with, and what finishing steps may be needed, you are still starting at the foot of a steep learning curve. It's not impossible to learn what you need to know, but it will be a sizable investment of time, materials, and money. So plan on being able to find some good vendors first to assure you can get the products you need while you climb that curve. Good Luck!

 

[Batch]

Rather a queer observation, if you ask me. It seems that just about everyone that you find agreeing with you, Bat, hasn’t been in the business very long or hasn’t cut their teeth in yet.

How did they agree with my open question which was deemed stupid?

{quote]Signs 101 is a place to come and share information and take information and also have fun…. and sometimes its at others' expense and sometimes at our own. No one is ever gonna set up a proper way to find information without breaking rules or procedures because like Ball said, there is no Master’s Degree in Sign Making. However, it is nice to know that whether you are here 5 minutes or five years, there is an appreciation of all answers… good and bad alike. Even in the tasteless or rude answers, there is generally some good information in it…. you just have to sometimes wade through the BS part and cut to the chase.[/quote]

Malk… that’s probably what you weren’t catching in my earlier post……. If you don’t get along here and you’re new… it at least pays to be the nice guy and you’ll eventually get better information.

Where was I not a nice guy?

There’s no sign etiquette class, so you’re all just stuck with whatever falls into the whole mess. It’s up to each and every individual how they are going to use that information. Take out the colorful adjectives and rude comments and there’s usually something there for you.

Huh?

I guess what Dan means is…

• What is your target customer…….
  [*]What is your level of expertise both with using software and this type of machinery……..
  [*]What size shop do you have…………
  [*]What is your budget for these additions………………..

• 
  

Are you saying Dan's post left you guessing?

Even bob said you don’t possess any humor. Now that’s a tough act to follow.

Should I argue with your logic?

Anyway, for what it’s worth, most of the larger electric shops that are now turning to digital printing, happen to be the larger shops that are hurting because of so many smaller shops biting them in the butt every time they lose a bid due to their high overhead.

Is that a real response? Are you really serious. The answer is no!

You wanna blame it on lousy vendors, but you are only trying to cut a middleman out of the picture because making ends meet is getting tougher and tougher. You can’t make a profit and still remain competitive until you bring this stuff in-house. You won’t necessarily have better products, but you’ll have lower overhead… so you think.

I defined the problem in the post.

Let me ask you a quick question…. if you are such a big electric shop, what percentage of digital printing is in your future… let’s say for the month of July or August or even September ?? Will that thing be cranking out 6 to 8 or 10 hours a day ?? If not, then why spend $60,000 to $100,000 on equipment that all you have to do is find a reliable vendor/supplier and make sure you’re getting quality work at a fair price ?? Remember this also… if you beat your suppliers up over price, you’re never gonna get good quality. You bring those machines in-house and you’ll see just how hard it is to do small volume sales and keep the prices down at the same time… regardless if you’re doing it in-house. The only thing you can control is quality, but the cost of materials will remain the same unless you have some big buying power deal going.

We do not want to do these prints. We have little choice. Despite your prejudices. We are experiencing problems!

 

[gbarker]

We do not want to do these prints. We have little choice. Despite your prejudices. We are experiencing problems!

We'd be happy to print everything you need within our capabilities.

 

[Gino]

Sorry Bat.....​

My mistake. There's no helping someone with an attitude like you're sporting around. You took most of my stuff totally out of context, because you're not getting the results you're seeking. You even put words into others mouths. Don't need that crap. So, just forget it.

Do you realize you blasted just about everyone that whether or not you agreed with them.... you tore them a new asshole ?? Don't need that sort of crap either, so go play with the people that will tell you everything you want to know.

Good Luck....................... dude :U Rock:​