rgb...cmyk....so cornfused!...ugg

[luggnut]

By coming up with my own standard workflow, and remaining consistent with that, & using my Pantone-to-CMYK fan-deck, or those CMYK charts I mentioned.. I have 5 years of consistent results, happy customers.. and I never took any Greek classes or made a single profile of my own... works for me

isigns quote

As you said you have developed a workflow for Pantone-to-CMYK.

sjm quote

isign never claimed a perfect pantone-to-cmyk workflow.. he said he had a workflow that worked for him at his shop. many here have a similar method...

you... trying to prove your great knowledge of the subject by the strange questions like you are the teacher or something is a little irritating.

maybe you know all about color and work flow yada, yada, yada, .... and i don't build my own profiles so somehow me and others like me aren't gonna make it.

 

[sjm]

isigns quote

sjm quote

isign never claimed a perfect pantone-to-cmyk workflow.. he said he had a workflow that worked for him at his shop. many here have a similar method...

you... trying to prove your great knowledge of the subject by the strange questions like you are the teacher or something is a little irritating.

maybe you know all about color and work flow yada, yada, yada, .... and i don't build my own profiles so somehow me and others like me aren't gonna make it.

luggnut if I come across that way then I apologize. Hopefully we can agree Pantone came to be because CMYK had it's limitations. I reply to what I read fact or myth, I do not judge the poster.

I am beginning to think challenging people and sharing information is frowned upon on this board.

 

[luggnut]

I am beginning to think challenging people and sharing information is frowned upon on this board.

no... sharing info or even challenging to really help others is not frowned on. you do come across like you are trying to be an a$$.

isign posted his method and was meaning that most people (myself included) would never understand the complete ins and outs of color management , but with enough knowledge and consistency... you could get more than acceptable color.

you came across like you were calling him out as a dummy or at least beneath you because you were a color expert.

if you have some answers to some of these questions please share , i want to know... but to phrase things the way you do puts people in the defensive.

 

[sjm]

Yeah...that's it. You've got the place figured out all right

 

[sjm]

no... sharing info or even challenging to really help others is not frowned on. you do come across like you are trying to be an a$$.

isign posted his method and was meaning that most people (myself included) would never understand the complete ins and outs of color management , but with enough knowledge and consistency... you could get more than acceptable color.

you came across like you were calling him out as a dummy or at least beneath you because you were a color expert.

if you have some answers to some of these questions please share , i want to know... but to phrase things the way you do puts people in the defensive.

I may disagree with opinions but I respect them. I don't think anyone is an a$$

OK then let iSign prove Pantone wrong. We are still discussing Pantone and why they came to be?

 

[luggnut]

here is the original post that started this thread

rgb...cmyk....so cornfused!...ugg
<hr style="color: rgb(209, 209, 225); background-color: rgb(209, 209, 225);" size="1"> Hey Guys!
Feeling a bit dumb.
So the best designer sign girl I ever had working for me left last week, she had moved to Baltimore a couple months ago, was tired of the 45 minute ride and took a job with a signarama down there. Hope they realize how lucky they are to get this chick.
Now I am designing until my new person starts. I just upgraded to flexi pro 8.6 which I hate...it massacres pdfs and some eps files too. So what I have been doing is opening those files in photoshop at 300 dpi then importing them into flexi to print. My question is in photoshop should I make the files cmyk or rgb?
Thanks for any help! Feeling very frustrated....overworked and understaffed! This is our busiest time....3 weeks ago had hired a new production person who had previous sign experience..but I want things done my way...so I have to watch him like a hawk. Oh for the days when I was just promoting and running the business!
Thanks for listening and please let me know your thoughts on the cmyk/rgb question!
Paula

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so no we are not discussing pantone and how they came to be!!!!

we were trying to give advice to a person about color spaces and how to get acceptable color.

i am being serious here ... is english your second language? if so that would explain a lot

 

[sjm]

here is the original post that started this thread
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so no we are not discussing pantone and how they came to be!!!!

we were trying to give advice to a person about color spaces and how to get acceptable color.

i am being serious here ... is english your second language? if so that would explain a lot

I read the opening post and as you call it acceptable colour, my point to iSign he achieving pleasing colour ... maybe you need to reread through the entire thread?

You know what they say when you assume?

 

[luggnut]

My question is in photoshop should I make the files cmyk or rgb?

that was the only question asked by the OP...

now you have sidelined the whole issue with this "pantone and how it came to be" discussion ....

if you have a method that the OP could use or a suggestion then great,... but you only seem to want to discuss the more complex issues of color (maybe to prove your great knowledge?)

but do you design in CMYK or RGB and would you recommend CMYK or RGB to a novice? that is the question that is being discussed.

 

[sjm]

that was the only question asked by the OP...

now you have sidelined the whole issue with this "pantone and how it came to be" discussion ....

if you have a method that the OP could use or a suggestion then great,... but you only seem to want to discuss the more complex issues of color (maybe to prove your great knowledge?)

but do you design in CMYK or RGB and would you recommend CMYK or RGB to a novice? that is the question that is being discussed.

luggnut my only point was setting expectations. Look to a Pantone Solid Guide, it has both RGB and CMYK values it can hit. Isign raised the Pantone-to-CMYK.

Me I prefer to work in CMYK, as I mentioned elsewhere I supply my fussy client's with my printer profile. Which they can soft proof with.

 

[serverjohn]

I feel like it would be helpful to understand RGB and CMKY better.

RGB = Red Green & Blue
It is a measurement of light. That is why things on the web use RGB because they are viewed on monitors. Monitors use light to convey color using combinations of red, green, and blue. A complete absence of those colors or light makes black a complete saturation white. So rgb colors relate to light.
CMYK = Cyan, Magenta, Yellow, Black
Now because there are other things we want to see color on don't emit light(ie paper and vinyl) we need inks. CMYK ink combinations unfortunately can't make all the colors that RGB can display on your monitor. So this is were the problem comes in. We need translator between the two. Thats why if you are designing something for print you should work in a CMYK environment.

Now you throw in rip softwares and monitors and ink issues.

I apologize if I just threw this in the middle of a conversation. It just seems as though no one knows these basics.

 

[Kemble]

I apologize if I just threw this in the middle of a conversation. It just seems as though no one knows these basics.

You also raised the dead of an 8 month old post.

 

[tbaker]

it may be months and months old, but this is a topic worthy of discussion. Most people don't understand why it's so difficult to hit a particular color, or more specifically pantone color with their large format printer. The inherent problems between rgb and cmyk, what lc and lm do in large format printing. the differene between additive and subtractive color, and how it affects end results.

 

[KSDzine]

rgb for web
cmyk for print

that simple. yes all design programs know whether your in rgb or cmyk. If you preflight your work you'll be okay... all printers are cmyk... they can convert from rgb but they can Physically only print cmyk and PMS colors... rgb is for web or screen viewing only, THAT IS WHY THE COLORS POP ON SCREEN. they print like mud unless your pre press guy knows what he is doing and fixes the color before it is plated or preflighted for press.

 

[tbaker]

I hate to correct but large format printers don't print pantone or PMS colors.

Pantone refers to a color space, much like sRGB to give designers a consistent reference for color.

Unfortunately, Pantone is based on spot colors, specifically formulated INK to produce a particular color, and most of the pantone system falls outside of the range of the typical CMYK printer. As a point of reference look at the metallics or fluorescents, there is no hope to hit any of those colors on a LFP.

Those are pushing the limits I agree, but let's get more basic, let's look at cool gray 3U or 4U, most oranges, and many many greens. How about something so simple as Reflex Blue, It's amazing that something so simple, should be so difficult to hit.

While I use pantone to get close, there are very few matches that can be made. Use a bridge and look at the difference between the 2 colors ( any 2) you begin to see the difference between RGB and CMYK, additive and subtractive color.

 

[eye4clr]

I continue to be amazed at how antiquated ideas continue to get in the way of getting good output.

The overall concepts are extremely simple. All digital color, especially large format, is about managing a conversion from what the color is in the file to accurate output on your specific print system. To do this at a reasonably good level, you simply connect the color space of the file with the output profile that matches your output in your RIP's color management settings. Done.

If your file is RGB, CMYK, Pantone, or a mix of these, it should not matter. If your system is setup correctly, and you have a good output profile, life should be pretty good. The details of this can get a bit complicated, but if you have the proper goal in mind, it can guide you when you are confronted with choices.

I'm going to generalize here, so try not to pick apart exceptions.....
For most folks, your design applications should be setup to recognize and create files in these color spaces....
RGB = sRGB
CMYK = US Web Coated SWOP (in the US)

If all your design apps Working Spaces and your RIP's input profiles are setup to agree to these settings, you've got your input side pretty much sorted out for 99% of files. Now you'll be able to handle all of these file types with equal ease and success.

The output side is generally the hardest part to do well because many "canned" profiles are of average performance. Only you can define if they are good enough for your needs or not. But most people have no idea how to evaluate and test the output profile objectively.

Sending perfect grays though the print system as even numbers of RGB or as CMYK numbers of K only or all CMY and K mixed, but mixed as a properly balanced grey, will be a very demanding test of an output profile. If the resulting print does not come out grey, that's a clue the output profile is inaccurate for your system. Another valid test is to send Pantone colors though with the RIP's ability to recognize them correctly turned ON. Then check for accuracy. If the Pantone is defined as a standardly named Pantone color, and your RIP "sees" it correctly, this is also a valid test.

If you need better results than your valid tests give you, expect to get into making your own profiles. Then your color performance is only limited by the equipment, materials, and your expertise at getting the most out of them. For some shops, this is a monumental change of the better. For some, the advantage is not worth the expense and frustration. Usually the differences are purely economical and obvious.

Of course there is the issue of out of gamut colors. Having a Pantone Bridge book is an excellent tool to help visually explain to print buyers why they can not get Reflex Blue or Orange 021 C on a print system using the CMYK that is defined in the Pantone book. But a properly profiled print system that uses the typical OEM inks can hit 80-90% of the Pantone book with little effort or editing on a decent material. Your level of success with Pantone most often has to do with the accuracy of the output profile, not gamut limitations.

Some common exceptions to these very simple guidelines are if you create the large majority of what you print. If so, going with Adobe RGB as a day to day working space is a good choice. The RIP obviously needs to be setup to agree with this choice. You also have to be aware that almost 100% of RGB files you get from outside sources are going to be sRGB. This creates an opportunity for your RIP to think the incoming file is Adobe RGB instead of correctly agreeing with the incoming sRGB.

Sometimes it is helpful to turn proper color management OFF in the RIP to run CMYK files with the printers maximum gamut instead of striving for color accuracy. This has its place, but will cause more grief if all your CMYK files are run this way. To do this workflow well, your RIP's linearization (calibration, not icc profile) has to really ROCK! Generally, stick to converting all incoming files (assuming your output profile does at least an average job of converting them).

I don't intend to fan any fames here as so often happens with color discussions on this board. I hope to illustrate that a properly setup print system is not hard to achieve. If you want to get the last 10-15% of performance out of your prints, expect it to get more complicated (and expensive).