Right time to purchase new machine / inks

[Fruitcake]

Hi guys, long time lurker, first time poster.

We are looking at upgrading our Roland printer. We currently have a VS-540 and it runs around 20-25 hours per week printing (cut on a Camm1 Pro). All printing is done on Avery MPI1005.

We were looking at the XR-640 but don't need the cutting function, so looked at the XF-640. Now the Roland rep has thrown the new EJ in the mix.

My main concern / question is about ink. I know the X series uses EcoSOL Max 2.. and now have an upgrade to EcoSOL Max 3??
The EJ uses a new and I guess unproven ink type (not even mentioning the new TrueVIS or whatever it's called in the VG series).

I guess my question is, should we buy now? I like the idea of the EJ but don't like the idea of being a guinea pig!

 

[jfiscus]

Look at all the brands, We have 3 different printers here; Mimaki, Epson & HP Latex. They all print great and all three use different ink types. Buy whichever printer is the best deal/fit for your company. We bought our two new printers at a great discount during special promotional offers.

 

[BigfishDM]

Hi guys, long time lurker, first time poster.

We are looking at upgrading our Roland printer. We currently have a VS-540 and it runs around 20-25 hours per week printing (cut on a Camm1 Pro). All printing is done on Avery MPI1005.

We were looking at the XR-640 but don't need the cutting function, so looked at the XF-640. Now the Roland rep has thrown the new EJ in the mix.

My main concern / question is about ink. I know the X series uses EcoSOL Max 2.. and now have an upgrade to EcoSOL Max 3??
The EJ uses a new and I guess unproven ink type (not even mentioning the new TrueVIS or whatever it's called in the VG series).

I guess my question is, should we buy now? I like the idea of the EJ but don't like the idea of being a guinea pig!

The whole print/cut solution is the biggest sham in the industry. If you don't need a cutter then you should consider the Latex 330 or 310 series by HP. The inks are less expensive, its twice as fast as that Roland, and its the most environmentally friendly solution available. It would be a shame to see anyone not consider the Latex technology, I have been a promoter of it since day 1 and the gen 3 models are the best printer in tis class hands down. If your serious about doing an Apples to Apples comparison let me know and I will shred any printer MFG out there vs the NEW latex version.

 

[rjssigns]

Buy whatever brand has tech support minutes from your shop. All stuff breaks, and usually in the middle of a big job.

My two cents:

One issue I have with latex is the loading. They're great if you plan on running full rolls at a time. Otherwise not so much. There are days when I print several different medias. I can have new media loaded and running in the Roland by the time I remove the media from the HP, pull out the core blah blah blah... I can also use small/narrow "tails" with zero issue. Smallest piece an HP will load is 42". Something to think about.

Power consumption is another factor. A Latex 360 eats 4600watts while printing. Rolands XR640 uses 1350watts.

There are some other reasons, but I would probably be run out of town.

One advantage to latex is instant drying. I do like that. Although I don't think it will be too long before ink technology catches up. Could have already with the new EJ inks.

 

[FatCat]

If I understand your post, I "think" you're asking about the logic of using 2 different types of ink for 2 different types of printer? If so, my advice is to try to use the same ink, and possibly even the same machine so that inks and parts are interchangeable. Makes life really nice when purchasing and stocking consumables. We run 2 Mutoh 1624's and before that I had a 1204 and a 1604...both pairs used same ink, same parts, etc. and makes life easy when you have an issue. (So you don't have to stock 2 or more sets of ink, wipers, cap tops, dampers, etc...)

I think the only way I would consider running 2 or more different brands of machines would be if each one had a specific job they were best at. Such as, 1 eco solvent roll-to-roll printer and then 1 UV flatbed, etc...

Just my .02¢

 

[BigfishDM]

Buy whatever brand has tech support minutes from your shop. All stuff breaks, and usually in the middle of a big job.

My two cents:

One issue I have with latex is the loading. They're great if you plan on running full rolls at a time. Otherwise not so much. There are days when I print several different medias. I can have new media loaded and running in the Roland by the time I remove the media from the HP, pull out the core blah blah blah... I can also use small/narrow "tails" with zero issue. Smallest piece an HP will load is 42". Something to think about.

Power consumption is another factor. A Latex 360 eats 4600watts while printing. Rolands XR640 uses 1350watts. (This should not add up to more than $25 a month)

There are some other reasons, but I would probably be run out of town.

One advantage to latex is instant drying. I do like that. Although I don't think it will be too long before ink technology catches up. Could have already with the new EJ inks.

I understand your point, BUT the speed of the machine makes up for the extra minute it might take to load a roll. Also energy consumption is a big myth also, the average difference in energy cost is maybe $25 a month if your doing a lot of printing and for all the benefits $25 a month should not be a factor.

The 360 might not be your best option, it might be the 310 or 330 instead.

At this point I don't know much that anyone could say to me that would make me believe that HP Latex isn't the best machine for just about every application. How long do you have to wait for your solvent/eco-solvent ink to dry? How many materials can you print on that are literally scratch resistant when using eco-solvent inks? HP has built a better mouse trap and they continue to improve on every generation they have come out with, they have the number 1 position in the market and comparing apples to apples HP will win EVERY TIME! Its amazing to see the BS propaganda that Roland and others put out about Latex that are straight up LIES.

You can print on a wider variety of material also and your cost of materials can drop dramatically depending on the application.

 

[rjssigns]

I understand your point, BUT the speed of the machine makes up for the extra minute it might take to load a roll. Also energy consumption is a big myth also, the average difference in energy cost is maybe $25 a month if your doing a lot of printing and for all the benefits $25 a month should not be a factor.

The 360 might not be your best option, it might be the 310 or 330 instead.

At this point I don't know much that anyone could say to me that would make me believe that HP Latex isn't the best machine for just about every application. How long do you have to wait for your solvent/eco-solvent ink to dry? How many materials can you print on that are literally scratch resistant when using eco-solvent inks? HP has built a better mouse trap and they continue to improve on every generation they have come out with, they have the number 1 position in the market and comparing apples to apples HP will win EVERY TIME! Its amazing to see the BS propaganda that Roland and others put out about Latex that are straight up LIES.

You can print on a wider variety of material also and your cost of materials can drop dramatically depending on the application.

What works well for some is not a printers panacea. Fact is I run both and don't care for some of HP's "better" ideas.

As far as power consumption $25 more per month is suspect. If you print the exact same hours per day with the HP 360 as opposed to the Roland XR640 you will use 3.4 times more electricity.
4600watts/1350watts = 3.4 times more electricity. Ohm's laws are immutable facts.

Fatcat's post makes the most sense. Stick with what you know. Adding a second rig from the same mfg. means no learning curve, no stocking a second set of inks, no profiling etc...

 

[BigfishDM]

What works well for some is not a printers panacea. Fact is I run both and don't care for some of HP's "better" ideas.

As far as power consumption $25 more per month is suspect. If you print the exact same hours per day with the HP 360 as opposed to the Roland XR640 you will use 3.4 times more electricity.
4600watts/1350watts = 3.4 times more electricity. Ohm's laws are immutable facts.

That is true, but if your printing the exact same hours then your actually going to get DOUBLE the amount of work done on the HP or close to it. What I mean is that you have to run your Roland longer to get the same amount of work then the energy factor doesn't really matter. At $0.11 a kilowatt hour it is about $0.56 an hour to run it

I think its important you post your thoughts about Latex because it helps make better machines based on your feedback.

 

[2B]

as a shop that runs multiple machines(Roland, Epson) stay with what you are comfortable with / know how to use.
so much easier as you will have one RIP program, better chance of consistent coloring, easier maintenance, etc...

granted the new machines are very enticing and we are looking at a few of them but we also know how long it took to get comfortable with the machines we have and what the can do.

 

[BigfishDM]

as a shop that runs multiple machines(Roland, Epson) stay with what you are comfortable with / know how to use.
so much easier as you will have one RIP program, better chance of consistent coloring, easier maintenance, etc...

granted the new machines are very enticing and we are looking at a few of them but we also know how long it took to get comfortable with the machines we have and what the can do.

The technology is proven, its much better for the environment, its more cost effective in just about every application, there is no daily or weekly maintenance, you can print on more materials, many materials are much less expensive, you don't have to wait hours for outgassing. The list goes on and on and the longer people wait to adapt the technology the more business your going to lose to your competitor who can do it faster, cheaper and better quality then any solvent/eco-sol solution on the market. Latex is changing the industry for the better!

Do a demo on one of the units and if you can honestly tell me these are difficult to run then I will retract my statement.

I deal to so many latex and UV users and I have literally heard all the negatives and I guarantee you that more people love this technology then don't. I probably sell more to solvent/eco-solvent users and I have heard so many horror stories and I just feel like its necessary to educate the industry on Greener solutions that are more cost effective and just plain better than solvent technology.

 

[reQ]

I did read somewhere here that solvent printers are better for vehicle wraps? I have never used latex, just wondering if its true and if it is -why?

 

[BigfishDM]

I did read somewhere here that solvent printers are better for vehicle wraps? I have never used latex, just wondering if its true and if it is -why?

100% false! Latex might be the absolute best option for wrap companies, in fact the biggest wrap guys I know run all Latex. Every aspect is better with Latex for that application. The ink can stretch way more than solvent inks also.

 

[PRS Bryan]

Well, sounds like Big Fish knows the truth. Rest of us ought to just listen.

I would buy a latex printer, but I already have a HP 310 that I don't use as much as my Roland VS-540.

 

[BigfishDM]

Well, sounds like Big Fish knows the truth. Rest of us ought to just listen.

I would buy a latex printer, but I already have a HP 310 that I don't use as much as my Roland VS-540.

Lol I am not saying that its the only way to go. I'm saying its important that people embrace the new technology because its now the leading technology in the industry. May I ask why you don't use the HP as much as the Roland?

 

[Fruitcake]

Thanks for all the replies.

My main concern with going to the HP Latex is the issues it has with Avery MPI1005 media. We have used thousands of metres of it with no issues on the Roland so don't want to ruin a good thing. My guys are also familiar with Versaworks so I think the Roland is the cheapest in setup cost to just get going off the bat.

I was mainly questioning whether the EJ is a worthwhile risk. Seems like a good machine, but is it going to be better than the new EcoSOL 3 inks on the XF?

 

[jfiscus]

We run our printers all day every day, so I know how they all perform from my personal experience, so I'll throw my 2 cents in. We run all of our printers through Onyx 11, FWIW.

The HP latex can save your butt in a tight situation like same day print needs, so that alone should sway you towards it over other printers.
It DOES take a lot longer to get going after resting, and pause a bit between jobs. And it CAN be a bit of a pain to get materials loaded sometimes, and other times you might have take-up roll issues. But, it does print well (and fast) without much banding. The colors can be a bit flat, and I don't like that passes effects the amount of ink shot out, which changes the colors. If you're choosing only one new printer and can afford one I would probably say go latex. We purchased our printer at a "sign-show-special" rate of around $14,000.

We have a Mimaki JV3, and it has ran millions of feet of vinyl through it over the years without many problems. We had two of these that ran every day until we purchased our Epson and we sold the smaller 54" model. It is ancient and slow, but it just always works. We were looking at buying a new Mimaki when we were looking to add printers last year, but the costs were astronomical compared to the other printers out there. Mimaki printers are on par with quality with Rolands as far as being well-made and they'll still be running when you are going to upgrade.

We recently added an Epson S60670 Eco-Sol printer and it is a really awesome printer. Super easy to load and tape down, and then to unload and throw another roll on. We purchased it on sale recently for right around $4000 (it was a demo model at a distributor), so we couldn't pass that deal up. It prints awesome and is just as fast as the HP latex. We have an additional dryer installed, and the ink comes off the printer dry to the touch, but we still wait to laminate which isn't usually a problem as we print most jobs around a week in advance of the installation date. But, we have laminated same-day in a couple emergency cases with no problems. I personally like this printer the best of the three we have here, as it prints just as fast as the HP and is easier to operate and load in the room we have the printers in. it also has the ability to print metallic inks and white ink, but we haven't used those features yet.

 

[BigfishDM]

Thanks for all the replies.

My main concern with going to the HP Latex is the issues it has with Avery MPI1005 media. We have used thousands of metres of it with no issues on the Roland so don't want to ruin a good thing. My guys are also familiar with Versaworks so I think the Roland is the cheapest in setup cost to just get going off the bat.

I was mainly questioning whether the EJ is a worthwhile risk. Seems like a good machine, but is it going to be better than the new EcoSOL 3 inks on the XF?

I would approach Avery Material with extreme caution in any printer lol. The Avery will and does run fine in Latex as I see it almost every single day being done.

 

[PRS Bryan]

There are few reasons some of which are specific to my situation.

1) The load time and warm-up time from a cold HP310 is significantly longer than Roland. This is especially noticeable when color matching or troubleshooting.

2) With a minimum of profiling, I get a more saturated color off the Roland. Admittedly I haven't spent hours profiling either machine, but I have work to do.

3) When printing color proofs on the Roland I can print a small square, adjust and print another small square next to it without letting wasting the remaining vinyl in a horizontal direction. I can not assign a base point on the HP 310 which leads to waste.

4) The additional heat required by the HP 310 will curl corners on a couple of vinyls I use causing jams. To resolve this I have to forward a 12" to 18" tag of material to keep the corner away form the "heat zone".

5) The Roland is cheaper to troubleshoot minor issues. I can visually see a hair or dust on the print head clean it and know the problem is solved. Fortunately I have not had issues with the HP, but the solutions are push ink through and then replace heads at $150 a pop.

6) Due to some the factors mentioned above small runs are wasteful on the HP and IJ-180, reflective and perf is expensive.

7) I like Versa works better than Flexi-Print. I have no desire to spend a couple grand for a rip that is well beyond my needs.

8) In simplifying the printer HP has removed my ability to access the "guts" of the printer turning it into a "black box".

9) My Roland is built like a tank and has an established record of being a work horse, I don't have the same confidence in the HP. The durability of the HP will remain in question for a few years.

10) I know my Roland and I am still learning my HP, which takes time and money that I am loathe to part with.

11) The take up reel on the HP is a pain to deal with. A $500 Supply 55 take up reel on my Roland kicks the crap out of the HP take-up.

I am not hating on the HP and can easily imagine the situation where it would be a better option, in fact I have a large roll to roll printing job coming up that the HP will excel at. The HP is also far superior on banners, but for the day to day small runs on multiple materials I prefer my Roland. While I do believe that Latex is the future in ink, the printer itself by no means a "game changer".

 

[BigfishDM]

We run our printers all day every day, so I know how they all perform from my personal experience, so I'll throw my 2 cents in. We run all of our printers through Onyx 11, FWIW.

The HP latex can save your butt in a tight situation like same day print needs, so that alone should sway you towards it over other printers.
It DOES take a lot longer to get going after resting, and pause a bit between jobs. And it CAN be a bit of a pain to get materials loaded sometimes, and other times you might have take-up roll issues. But, it does print well (and fast) without much banding. The colors can be a bit flat, and I don't like that passes effects the amount of ink shot out, which changes the colors. If you're choosing only one new printer and can afford one I would probably say go latex. We purchased our printer at a "sign-show-special" rate of around $14,000.

We have a Mimaki JV3, and it has ran millions of feet of vinyl through it over the years without many problems. We had two of these that ran every day until we purchased our Epson and we sold the smaller 54" model. It is ancient and slow, but it just always works. We were looking at buying a new Mimaki when we were looking to add printers last year, but the costs were astronomical compared to the other printers out there. Mimaki printers are on par with quality with Rolands as far as being well-made and they'll still be running when you are going to upgrade.

We recently added an Epson S60670 Eco-Sol printer and it is a really awesome printer. Super easy to load and tape down, and then to unload and throw another roll on. We purchased it on sale recently for right around $4000 (it was a demo model at a distributor), so we couldn't pass that deal up. It prints awesome and is just as fast as the HP latex. We have an additional dryer installed, and the ink comes off the printer dry to the touch, but we still wait to laminate which isn't usually a problem as we print most jobs around a week in advance of the installation date. But, we have laminated same-day in a couple emergency cases with no problems. I personally like this printer the best of the three we have here, as it prints just as fast as the HP and is easier to operate and load in the room we have the printers in. it also has the ability to print metallic inks and white ink, but we haven't used those features yet.

Excellent real time feedback thanks for sharing! Do you happen to be running one of the older latex models? I am under the impression that the time has been drastically reduced now with the new convection heater element. Something like under 2 minutes is what one user said. Also what did it cost to add an additional heater?

 

[BigfishDM]

There are few reasons some of which are specific to my situation.

1) The load time and warm-up time from a cold HP310 is significantly longer than Roland. This is especially noticeable when color matching or troubleshooting. (Warm up is only like 90 seconds I thought? Load time might be quicker on the other units I can understand that)

2) With a minimum of profiling, I get a more saturated color off the Roland. Admittedly I haven't spent hours profiling either machine, but I have work to do. (I Understand)

3) When printing color proofs on the Roland I can print a small square, adjust and print another small square next to it without letting wasting the remaining vinyl in a horizontal direction. I can not assign a base point on the HP 310 which leads to waste. (When doing your proofs what material do you use for that?)

4) The additional heat required by the HP 310 will curl corners on a couple of vinyls I use causing jams. To resolve this I have to forward a 12" to 18" tag of material to keep the corner away form the "heat zone". (Does your unit have the media clamps?)

5) The Roland is cheaper to troubleshoot minor issues. I can visually see a hair or dust on the print head clean it and know the problem is solved. Fortunately I have not had issues with the HP, but the solutions are push ink through and then replace heads at $150 a pop. (I'm not sure that is the solution that is recommended for this issue lol)

6) Due to some the factors mentioned above small runs are wasteful on the HP and IJ-180, reflective and perf is expensive.

7) I like Versa works better than Flexi-Print. I have no desire to spend a couple grand for a rip that is well beyond my needs. (I can understand that)

8) In simplifying the printer HP has removed my ability to access the "guts" of the printer turning it into a "black box". (That's because there is no need to access the guts of the printer, or let me ask you why that is important?)

9) My Roland is built like a tank and has an established record of being a work horse, I don't have the same confidence in the HP. The durability of the HP will remain in question for a few years. (HP has more working units over time than any printer MFG. I still have big accounts who run the HP-5000 series lol its crazy)

10) I know my Roland and I am still learning my HP, which takes time and money that I am loathe to part with. (Your dealer should be DOING THIS FOR YOU! If you need some free resources let me know and I can steer you in a great direction)

11) The take up reel on the HP is a pain to deal with. A $500 Supply 55 take up reel on my Roland kicks the crap out of the HP take-up. (What is hard to deal with on the TUR?)

I am not hating on the HP and can easily imagine the situation where it would be a better option, in fact I have a large roll to roll printing job coming up that the HP will excel at. The HP is also far superior on banners, but for the day to day small runs on multiple materials I prefer my Roland. While I do believe that Latex is the future in ink, the printer itself by no means a "game changer".

I am not questioning your comments but I am looking to increase my knowledge on why people choose other technologies over latex. (You probably cant tell I am a big evangelist for Latex technology lol) :Big Laugh