Road to Dummy Terminals Marches On (Among Other Roads)

[WildWestDesigns]

With this little service from MS.

Why would anyone want a full feature desktop on a computer anymore? Run a stripdown OS just to bootstrap a browser to run the full future Windows in the browser (not there yet, but I see that coming, it's only a matter of time for low resource(can't be as low as embedded though, unless there is a lot of optimization) type systems to be our future mainstream PCs).

Good news is those that can't upgrade to Win 11 do now have a workaround for the holder hardware that can't run Win 11.

Atleast updates won't directly affect the local machine with this approach, so there is that.

All of this coming to a thin client (dummy terminal) near you in August.

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

On a 10Gb or 40Gb network this would be a dream for me. I would build a super server and just have thin clients running in VM on it for all aspects of the business except RIP.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

This wouldn't be from your own LAN, this would be from Azure (or Windows Cloud or whatever they call it for the general consumer). At least based on what I'm able to glean from their site. If I was able to run this instance on my own servers, sure, I could see about having to still plug into someone else's cloud, nope.

One can pretty much run Windows Server on their own server and VM an instance of Windows desktop in that manner (unless they closed off that ability in later versions of Windows server)

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

This idea has been talked about for years and years and it's not getting traction... what makes you think this time it will?

 

[WildWestDesigns]

This idea has been talked about for years and years and it's not getting traction... what makes you think this time it will?

Some of that was logistics of the tech and people not liking the idea.

We already run quite a bit of our programs in the cloud as it is, that's halfway to this already. MS has already demonstrated a lack of enthusiasm for Windows, especially on the desktop, as it is. For crying out loud, they actually have an in house Linux OS of their own to run off their other services. They can't even get their "flagship" mainstream OS without issue and working on a separate OS as as well. And since it's internal, that Linux OS of theirs would have to have an internal QA team, which Windows does not have anymore (hence a big reason why I don't think they care as much about Windows as much as it was when Gates was in charge). MS Office (like it or not), which was their bread and butter as far as desktop applications goes, is now essentially online only. I would imagine that if they were to have it as a desktop app now, it would be an Electron app from here on out (Teams, VSCode are that way now as it is, I wonder when it will be with VS as well).

All roads point to this more and more.

Hell, I would imagine more and more programs will actually be Webview programs (or Webview2 programs on Windows) where it's just a window that more then likely points to a website that everyone does their work from (much lighter in terms of storage space and RAM usage compared to Electron as well). When I was creating Go programs, with everything embedded (the server code, the HTML/CSS/JS/WASM(binary code for browsers), depending on the program it was 100MB to 200MB of RAM and 9MB binary size (that's with everything embedded into one binary even with debug symbols still in binary). I would imagine that would be smaller for those that just point to an external webpage and take out the debug symbols.

Now, that 200MBs of RAM was for an audio program that handled streamed content as well as local audio files (reason why I have server code in there to get around CORs and to run WASM as well). After a few hours of just running the program (either streaming internet radio or local files), it would creep up to about 230 MBs of RAM. I change the file or change the internet station, it would go back down to 180MBs and go from there. Using something like VLC, any heavy use within an hour, it gets up to 800MB of RAM (and doesn't come down when changing files (I would imagine memory leak) and it's somewhere around 40 to 100MB binary size on Windows. Significantly more then the binary size of a webview app.

Now part of the reason why Webview apps have less memory consumption then just doing the browser route is that the browser has a lot of other features (bookmark capabilities, address bar, addon abilities that are installed and running and amount of tabs running in an instance etc) that webview does not have. I do like webview apps, but I like them with everything embedded in them and are able to run offline.

 

[Vinyl slayer]

Some of that was logistics of the tech and people not liking the idea.

We already run quite a bit of our programs in the cloud as it is, that's halfway to this already. MS has already demonstrated a lack of enthusiasm for Windows, especially on the desktop, as it is. For crying out loud, they actually have an in house Linux OS of their own to run off their other services. They can't even get their "flagship" mainstream OS without issue and working on a separate OS as as well. And since it's internal, that Linux OS of theirs would have to have an internal QA team, which Windows does not have anymore (hence a big reason why I don't think they care as much about Windows as much as it was when Gates was in charge). MS Office (like it or not), which was their bread and butter as far as desktop applications goes, is now essentially online only. I would imagine that if they were to have it as a desktop app now, it would be an Electron app from here on out (Teams, VSCode are that way now as it is, I wonder when it will be with VS as well).

All roads point to this more and more.

Hell, I would imagine more and more programs will actually be Webview programs (or Webview2 programs on Windows) where it's just a window that more then likely points to a website that everyone does their work from (much lighter in terms of storage space and RAM usage compared to Electron as well). When I was creating Go programs, with everything embedded (the server code, the HTML/CSS/JS/WASM(binary code for browsers), depending on the program it was 100MB to 200MB of RAM and 9MB binary size (that's with everything embedded into one binary even with debug symbols still in binary). I would imagine that would be smaller for those that just point to an external webpage and take out the debug symbols.

Now, that 200MBs of RAM was for an audio program that handled streamed content as well as local audio files (reason why I have server code in there to get around CORs and to run WASM as well). After a few hours of just running the program (either streaming internet radio or local files), it would creep up to about 230 MBs of RAM. I change the file or change the internet station, it would go back down to 180MBs and go from there. Using something like VLC, any heavy use within an hour, it gets up to 800MB of RAM (and doesn't come down when changing files (I would imagine memory leak) and it's somewhere around 40 to 100MB binary size on Windows. Significantly more then the binary size of a webview app.

Now part of the reason why Webview apps have less memory consumption then just doing the browser route is that the browser has a lot of other features (bookmark capabilities, address bar, ad

don abilities that are installed and running and amount of tabs running in an instance etc) that webview does not have. I do like webview apps, but I like them with everything embedded in them and are able to run offline.

got a Link to the "footnotes for dummies" guide?

 

[WildWestDesigns]

got a Link to the "footnotes for dummies" guide?

It would just be a waste of time, based on past posts.

I think it would probably just be easier to put me on ignore and go on about your day.

Edit: Val47 what can I say (I'm adding this after seeing the emoji to the original version of this post). When I'm greeted with the sleeping emoji in your responses to my post regularly, I just don't see the need to respond specifically, I get the idea of the person doesn't really care (which is fine, that's their right, we all have what we care or don't care about and they don't always cross). Add in the eye rolling on this particular post, I can see the writing on the wall.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

I still haven't even figured out how to use my phone.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

I still haven't even figured out how to use my phone.

I can understand that if you are using Android or iOS. Pinephone here and just like running one of my regular computers, just happens to send/receive phone and SMS.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

Computers and software at our level are a mature market and have plateaued. This is their answer to it unfortunately for us.
The only thing that drives most people to buy a new PC anymore is because the old one becomes unstable. For the majority, it will eventually become a forced transition when replacement time comes. Like the move to windows 10.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

Some of that was logistics of the tech and people not liking the idea.

We already run quite a bit of our programs in the cloud as it is, that's halfway to this already. MS has already demonstrated a lack of enthusiasm for Windows, especially on the desktop, as it is. For crying out loud, they actually have an in house Linux OS of their own to run off their other services. They can't even get their "flagship" mainstream OS without issue and working on a separate OS as as well. And since it's internal, that Linux OS of theirs would have to have an internal QA team, which Windows does not have anymore (hence a big reason why I don't think they care as much about Windows as much as it was when Gates was in charge). MS Office (like it or not), which was their bread and butter as far as desktop applications goes, is now essentially online only. I would imagine that if they were to have it as a desktop app now, it would be an Electron app from here on out (Teams, VSCode are that way now as it is, I wonder when it will be with VS as well).

All roads point to this more and more.

Hell, I would imagine more and more programs will actually be Webview programs (or Webview2 programs on Windows) where it's just a window that more then likely points to a website that everyone does their work from (much lighter in terms of storage space and RAM usage compared to Electron as well). When I was creating Go programs, with everything embedded (the server code, the HTML/CSS/JS/WASM(binary code for browsers), depending on the program it was 100MB to 200MB of RAM and 9MB binary size (that's with everything embedded into one binary even with debug symbols still in binary). I would imagine that would be smaller for those that just point to an external webpage and take out the debug symbols.

Now, that 200MBs of RAM was for an audio program that handled streamed content as well as local audio files (reason why I have server code in there to get around CORs and to run WASM as well). After a few hours of just running the program (either streaming internet radio or local files), it would creep up to about 230 MBs of RAM. I change the file or change the internet station, it would go back down to 180MBs and go from there. Using something like VLC, any heavy use within an hour, it gets up to 800MB of RAM (and doesn't come down when changing files (I would imagine memory leak) and it's somewhere around 40 to 100MB binary size on Windows. Significantly more then the binary size of a webview app.

Now part of the reason why Webview apps have less memory consumption then just doing the browser route is that the browser has a lot of other features (bookmark capabilities, address bar, addon abilities that are installed and running and amount of tabs running in an instance etc) that webview does not have. I do like webview apps, but I like them with everything embedded in them and are able to run offline.

I don't see it happening in Windows anytime soon. Windows is an operating system that makes your local computer work. The power needed to have it all up in the cloud would be too much.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Computers and software at our level are a mature market and have plateaued. This is their answer to it unfortunately for us.

In the sense of "feature" richness, yes. I think they could all benefit from refactoring to help speed things up for even the hardware that we have now. For newer hardware, those updates are going to be under the category of "so what" even though they are necessary (like like the change from 64 bit from 32bit) and not really enticing to people to upgrade. Who cares about GLES2 to GLES3? Or GLES to Vulken? It's the less bling bling type of upgrades.

The power needed to have it all up in the cloud would be too much.

Not really. Browser space is growing leaps and bounds and we are now able to access the GPU directly for those heavy intensive tasks. Run a thin stripped down OS (I can even see a kiosk type of OS being used here), able to use more of the resources to run the browser based VM, not really as out there as one would think. Keep in mind, that there is an open source project that has the ability to run a VM within the browser itself. Which is essentially what this is. Able to run Win 7 and Vista (we all know what a cluster that was for the majority of people (although I never had a problem with it and I actually liked it)) within it, and this is an open source project, imagine what can be done with it if MS really has their mind set to it.

 

[AGCharlotte]

Need more of a robust infrastructure in the US for it to really take hold. Our broadband industry is still behind and service areas are vastly incomplete.

 

[Gino]

Hahaaaa........ so, just because you don't have an answer and don't wanna waste time responding....... you just tell people to 'ignore' you ?? It seems you have it backwards. If you're boring and just writing things for the sport of it and someone wants a dumb-downed version, you snob them ?? Cripes, that's the title of YOUR thread. I view this as odd and purposely meaningless information. Why even bring it up, if you don't intend to answer questions referring to your posts ?? It would appear your OP is what should be ignored, not the membership.

 

[AGCharlotte]

thin clients in the medium to large corporate entities would be the bomb though. Easy to deploy, easy to upgrade, easy to maintain, "easy" to secure and easy to manage licensing from a central location.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Hahaaaa........ so, just because you don't have an answer and don't wanna waste time responding....... you just tell people to 'ignore' you ?? It seems you have it backwards. If you're boring and just writing things for the sport of it and someone wants a dumb-downed version, you snob them ?? Cripes, that's the title of YOUR thread. I view this as odd and purposely meaningless information. Why even bring it up, if you don't intend to answer questions referring to your posts ?? It would appear your OP is what should be ignored, not the membership.

Why the rolling eyes and sleeping emojis? What is the point of that? From this particular user, I have consistently gotten the sleeping emoji, that doesn't not bring about that the person has any "interest" in what I say what so ever (this isn't just this thread, this is a history of other threads), even when it was a response when they previous wanted it. Why waste my time in responding further to the same person, when they start off the same way and have a history of continue in the same pattern? You know what they say about insanity right? Doing the same thing and expecting a different result.

You'll notice that I have responded to others. I think I have a pretty good history of responded when asked, in fact, I try to be as detailed as I can be when I do respond, hence the typical omnibus responses.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

thin clients in the medium to large corporate entities would be the bomb though. Easy to deploy, easy to upgrade, easy to maintain, "easy" to secure and easy to manage licensing from a central location.

They have already had that. This has been around a long time for corporate. Typically where things like this start.

With regard to your post about infrastructure, I would imagine that in the markets that are already built up, consumers would take advantage there and it will slowly get more and more. There is already a push to increase infrastructure as it is now and has been for a few yrs.

 

[Gino]

Well, I'm not in anybody else's head, yours nor the other member, but I'm just surprised that you responded in such a negative manner. Perhaps you are over his/her head in lotsa instances and you just don't realize it it. I know you sometimes get so into things, you tend to lose basically the whole crowd. I know s101 is not a popularity contest, but certainly with your past on this site, you might just avoid them, instead of telling them to avoid you. It's easier to follow one's own advice than to shove it down someone else's throat, no matter what the content.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Well, I'm not in anybody else's head, yours nor the other member, but I'm just surprised that you responded in such a negative manner.

I must say, I have never been accused of being a bubbly positive person either. Lukewarm maybe?? I dunno.

Perhaps you are over his/her head in lotsa instances and you just don't realize it it. I know you sometimes get so into things, you tend to lose basically the whole crowd.

I don't necessary think that, there are far more smarter people then I that have even responded in this thread. I think complacency has set in more then others and it has devolved into just not caring. I post in hopes to generate a care, because this type of stuff (and it's coming, be it in August if you are in an area to take advantage of it or in a few yrs) and it's really not good. Makes things easier on one hand, but when things are sacrificed for "ease of use", things tend to go bad.

I know s101 is not a popularity contest, but certainly with your past on this site, you might just avoid them, instead of telling them to avoid you. It's easier to follow one's own advice than to shove it down someone else's throat, no matter what the content.

It's just advice, they can do with it as they please. They don't have to take it.

I don't tend to put people on ignore myself as even though I may not agree with them on everything, they still may come up with a different way to think of something, be it in a production process or something else totally unrelated. I don't like missing out on things like that.

If I was to have gotten the sense that they honestly wanted me to elaborate more, I would have done so. Otherwise I don't. As far as negative responses, as I have gotten older and crustier, what can I say and my usual "spreading sunshine into everyone's lives" warmth is starting to fade. Blame bob, I'm starting to have his take on "I say what I want, because I can and I want to" and if you remember, I use to not be a fan of that as much. Oh what happens when one gets older.

 

[bteifeld]

Some things that continue to motivate my avoidance of cloud services, ASPs, and other rentier contrivances:

1. lax data protection standards and intellectual property protections for your business
2. lack of source code escrow terms in ASP agreements that protect customers by assuring business continuity through continuing access to the software
3. lack of the possibility with many ASP agreements to have an on-premises version
4. primitive internet infrastructure with insufficient affordable bandwidth(especially for graphically intensive content) as well as garbage SLAs(service level agreements)
5. one-sided contracts of adhesion being the norm rather than the exception with most IT outsourcing
6. Except where I need to use power/network/communications, I can best assure the reliability of my own infrastructure.

With respect- on the matter of improving internet infrastructure- I'll believe that when
we have replacement of copper with fiber to the home/business that was promised
in return for substantial deregulation of the telecom industry. The industry was
deregulated, and the fiber for the most part is yet to come. To learn more about
this, the work of Bruce Kushnick is most informative.