Roland and Latex

[dan1942]

What do you guys think about Rolands Marketing against HP Latex http://www.rolanddga.com/products/printers/latex-printer-vs-ecosolvent/ ??
I came from a Roland and am very Happy with my L360 it took a little to get used to but am pretty happy with it. Something that caught my eye was the costs of the heads they stated $750 every 2 months. Since we got ours we have been averaging a little over 10,000 sq ft a month and its been in production since February and I have not replaced the heads yet. also my electrician only charged about 300 to run the 220v

 

[CanuckSigns]

I think the costs are exaggerated, and a bit bias. However I do still think that replacing the 6 HP heads at regular intervals will cost significantly more over the life of the printer than Roland's method. Having had 3 Roland's, the longest one being for 5 years, I've never replaced a print head, over that same 5 year span how many HP heads would I have had to replace?

 

[neil_se]

Plenty of bias of course and they're comparing costs between the highest HP model and the lowest Roland models.

I've been running Rolands for 8 years (still have one XC540) and an L26500/L260 for 3 years.

RIP SOFTWARE - We run Solvent, Latex & UV so Versaworks is useless anyway. FlexiPrint would be less than half the cost of Onyx (we use Caldera though).
ELECTRICAL INSTALL - We already run 220-240V in Australia
CUTTER - Fair point for a small shop, but in a larger shop it's much less time efficient having to stop printing to put prints back through the cutter. Roland RF640 still doesn't include a cutter.
WARRANTY - Never had a problem with out Latex, only needed a technician visit once for a major service. Roland requires technician services every 6 months at cost of $500+ (we're in a regional area)

INK USAGE - Comes down to profiling, Latex inks are much cheaper though (~$140 for 440ml vs $165 for 775ml). Roland is quoting their "low-density" image figure, they state $.28/sqft for "high-density" images.
CONSUMABLES - Latex automatic maintenance replaces manual maintenance, so it's a cost VS time trade off
PRINTHEADS - Grossly overstated, we typically get 7-12L from a printhead so maybe 6 months for replacement

If you want to hand pick facts:
RELIABILITY - Automatic servicing, larger ink reservoirs and nozzle detection make the Latex much more reliable to print unattended/overnight
MEDIA TAKE UP - Included standard with the L360, not included with the Roland VS640
PRODUCTION TIME - Latex prints instantly ready to use VS dry and degas time of Roland (particularly for vehicle wraps)
PRINT SPEED - L360 is faster for equivalent quality
DURABILITY - High scratch resistance with L360 prints
MEDIA COSTS - Latex can print on uncoated papers which are far cheaper, but also won't reliably print on some medias that the Roland will. L360 can print on mesh with the ink collector.
FITTING - The way Latex inks react with the vinyl makes it much easier to fit vs soft and tacky off the Roland
COLOR PROFILING - L360 has an onboard spectrometer, Roland has none (I still use an external spectro though).

 

[player]

^ What does "fitting" mean?

 

[Vinyldog]

From the perspective of a Mom & Pop shop. I’ve had the L310 for two months now and haven’t even replaced an ink cartridge yet. The expense of Roland service is what made me look at the option of a new printer and a different brand. For the price of replacing a head I was well on my way to buying a much faster printer with the latest technology.

 

[Charlie J]

I looked at latex and didn't like the idea of the additional expense of replacing print heads. I have two Rolands and my oldest one is 6 years old and hasn't need a head replacement.

 

[rjssigns]

Hmm...never had to have a Roland tech come out every six months at $500 bucks a pop. If that was the case I never would have bought mine. Rolands must be made different for the Australian market.

 

[neil_se]

^ What does "fitting" mean?

Installation

Hmm...never had to have a Roland tech come out every six months at $500 bucks a pop. If that was the case I never would have bought mine. Rolands must be made different for the Australian market.

Yep, they do have 5 year heads & all warranties though on my XC540s, not sure about the newer models. This covers any parts (we have had a number of heads replaced) but we've still got to pay for servicing labour and travel.

I just sold our 7 year old XC540 and it's still motoring along (although it did just have a few more heads and scan motor replaced). I haven't sold our other one for a reason, they're a solid machine and we chose which type of printer to use depending on the job and media. It just makes me chuckle at Roland hand-picking facts and bashing the Latex.

 

[Bly]

The only thing I miss about Rolands is their media loading and handling.
In every other respect HP latex machines are better.

 

[FrankW]

I have worked several years (and still do that work) as a technician for roland printers, and now work for more than 3 years for a HP Latex dealer. I think I could comment the marketing Roland does.

Print heads

In Switzerland, the cost of ink and consumables (heads and maintenance cartridge) per ml for the HP is lower than for the Roland Eco-Sol-Max ink only (and both the original Mutoh- and the Mimaki-Ink are more expensive than the Roland Ink in Switzerland). And the HP don't suck ink just for cleaning the nozzles. Conclusion: don't be confused about changing the heads more often than on a Roland, calculate everything ... it could be that you will be surprised. I'm shure the situation is not different in the US.

Even changing the heads or the equivalent of Wiper, Capping, Ink Pump and so on can be easily replaced by the customer in minutes. You will never have a Roland up and running again around twenty minutes after a head is broken, even if you have one on stock ... this will work with the HP only.

With the new roland models, you will not pay only a few hundred bucks for print heads, they will charge much more (including ink dampers which should be replaced with the head). And there are 8 ink channels on one head. So if the black nozzles run into problems (the black nozzles are usually the first nozzles with problems), you need to replace the whole head. Because of this you will sometimes run into situations that the permanent piezo head will not print as accurate as new, but you will not replace it because of the costs. We know that because it happens that people are asking us for doing transluzent jobs, or jobs with monochrome surfaces, and after they saw the results very often they order their latex printer within a few weeks instead of spending tausands of swiss francs for replacing a head for a JV33, Mutoh Valuejet or VersaCamm Pro.

Software

Comparing VersaWorks with Onyx is an affrontery. VersaWorks is easy to use, but of really poor functionality. And that is true too when comparing VersaWorks with the FlexiPRINT HP Edition or other RIP's. And the FlexiPRINT will not cost $ 4'000.

And not to forget: the media profiles for the HP Latex 300-Series are universal, can be used with every RIP. There are nearly 500 downloadable directly to the printer, most of them created by professionals in HP's certification agencies. And it is easy to relinearize them and so solve a lot of problems filling the Signs101-Board (grey balance, gradients and much more) easily. With the Latex 360, you could create a complete media profile including ICC from scratch in the printer ... just with interpreting an ink limit swatch and pressing two further buttons (one for automatic linearising and one for automatic ICC swatch printing, reading and profile calculating). With VersaWorks, you can't even get an integrated ICC-Profiler, even if you have a spectrophotometer.

No further request on bulletin boards "Do have someone a profile for me"? Wouldn't that be nice?

Cutter

Comparing the integrated contour cutting system of a Roland Printer with a 7'000 bucks contour cutter is a affrontery too.

The Roland Contour Cutting system is the same since around 15 years, it is slow and of poor functionality. Buying for example a Summa (which for my opinion is the best contour cutting roll plotter on the market) wo allows batch processing (OPOS Barcode), have an enhanced punching system and have a lot of help to optimize cutting accuracy (more than 4 Markers, OPOS Panelling and so on) is much more value for the money.

Models

Comparing a VS or RF640 with a Latex 360 is a joke, but not a good one. The maximum speed of a RF640 is around 18 square meter (High Speed Mode): that speed is less than the regular speed of a Latex 360 producing good quality prints on banner, vinyl and paper (6-Pass), and similar to regular indoor quality printing mode (8 Pass). For being fair, with the VersaCamm Pro or VersaExpress, Roland should have to compare them with a 330, not a 360 ... for comparing a 360, use the Soljet XF640 ... a machine for a list price of $ 29'995, but still less functionality.

Other issues

The scratch resistance of the prints are much higher, with the 360 regularly no feed adjust is neccessary/no feed banding appears (OMAS), the printer prints mesh without liner or fabrics where the ink could drench thanks to the ink collector (360 only), the printer (360 only) can print double-sided easily, the ink don't smell during printing, the motorized unroll-axis will handle rolls constantly independent from the weight, and at last but not least for doing remote control through an app, in opposite to the roland app, with the Latex mobile app you do not need to be in the same network.

Sorry, Roland

I still feel sorry when Rolands arrive for trade-in after replacing them with a Latex-Printer (some of them I've sold myself some years ago). When the XR-640 was released, I have seen the countdown on the website and was happy that something new will arrive ... and was really disappointed that it was another soljet only. I'm aware of that HP have a lot more ressources to develop real innovations than companies like Roland, Mutoh or Mimaki ... but blaming the innovations, doing unfair comparisons and so on will not guide to success.

Two weeks ago I've got in contact with a very loyal roland user for years just because he asks for a software update, he had a look on an XR-640 ... this week we have installed a Latex 360. When the people, if roland user or not, enter our showroom we will catch them most of the time ... sometimes printing samples only will guide to a buy. I keep my fingers crossed that roland will have printers in the near future which will make selling Latex 360 against them not as easy as it is currently ... just for old times sake.